Why Mathematica does not simplify sinh(arccosh(x)) (johndcook.com)
129 points by ibobev 4 days ago
derf_ 11 hours ago
This sentence confused me: "For example, Sinh[ArcCosh[-2 + 0.001 I]] returns 11.214 + 2.89845 I but Sinh[ArcCosh[-2 + 0.001 I]] returns 11.214 - 2.89845 I," not the least of which because the two input expressions are the same, but also because we started out by saying Sinh[ArcCosh[-2]] = -Sqrt[3], which is not at all near 11.214 +/- 2.89845 I.
I think the author meant to say, "ArcCosh[-2 + 0.001 I] returns 1.31696 + 3.14102 I but ArcCosh[-2 - 0.001 I] returns 1.31696 - 3.14102 I," because we are talking about defining ArcCosh[] on the branch cut discontinuity, so there is no need to bring Sinh[] into it (and if we do, we find the limits are the same: the imaginary component goes to zero and Sinh[ArcCosh[-2 +/- t*I]] approaches -Sqrt[3] as t goes to zero from above or below). I am not sure what went wrong to get what they wrote.
johndcook 8 hours ago
Thanks. That was a mess. Don't know what happened, but I fixed it this morning.
hnarayanan 12 hours ago
This is a general pattern in CAS. For a more basic case, it’s not obvious sqrt(square(x)) will simplify to x without any further assumptions on x.
ogogmad 5 hours ago
I think you would get sqrt(x^2) = x, if x belonged to the natural domain of sqrt, which is a Riemann surface, that may also be defined using the language of "sheaves". I don't know how to connect this to the article or Mathematica.
mathisfun123 2 hours ago
it's literally the prototypical example for `Assuming`
burnt-resistor 11 hours ago
That's not what it simplifies to using a real or complex number domains for x, it's abs(x). CAS need type inference assumptions and/or type qualifiers to be more powerful.
Edit: Fixed stuff.
yorwba 9 hours ago
For x = -i, square(x) = -1, sqrt(square(x)) = i. Meanwhile, abs(x) = 1. You're right that it simplifies to abs(x) for real x, but that no longer holds for arbitrary complex values.
NooneAtAll3 6 hours ago
fph 6 hours ago
It's abs(x) only over the reals, for complex numbers it's more complicated.
SoftTalker 3 hours ago
That abs(x) (or |x| as we wrote it) used to catch out so many of us in HS trig and algebra.
jstanley 10 hours ago
Right, that's why you need further assumptions on x in order for that simplification to hold.
contubernio 10 hours ago
rfc3092 3 hours ago
This is what differentiates (pun intended) between Complex Algebra and Complex Analysis: complex functions in analysis are multivalued (or path dependent in some schools). Even a simple concept of value of F at complex point x becomes a topic of several lectures.
I’m algebraist at heart and training, but I remember beautiful many-layered surfaces of ordinary complex functions in books and on blackboards.
bryango 11 hours ago
I really wish Mathematica would open-source the heuristics behind these core functions (including common mathematical functions, Simplify, Integrate, etc.). The documentation is good, but it still lags behind the actual implementation. It would be much easier if we could peek inside the black box.
MinimalAction 10 hours ago
That blackbox being their entire moat, I would assume they'd never want to open-source any function. Mathematica as a front-end has innumerable frustrating bugs, but its CAS is top-notch. Especially combined with something like Rubi for integration, for me nothing comes close to Mathematica for algebraic computations.
eulerboiler 9 hours ago
Many functions source ate viewable. Use https://resources.wolframcloud.com/FunctionRepository/resour...
gdelfino01 9 hours ago
Someone 8 hours ago
For Simplify, I expect its a black, or at least gray box to Mathematica maintainers, too.
It will have simple rules such as constant folding, “replace x - x by zero”, “replace zero times something with the conditions under which ‘something’ has a value”, etc, lots of more complex but still easy to understand rules with conditionals such as “√x² = |x| if x is real”, and some weird logic that decides the order in which to try simplification rules.
There’s an analogy with compilers. In LLVM, most optimization passes are easy to understand, but if you look at the set of default optimization passes, there’s no clear reason for why it looks like it looks, other than “in our tests, that’s what performed best in a reasonable time frame”.
kccqzy 7 hours ago
A lot of problems look like this. A while ago I was working on a calendar event optimization (think optimizing “every Monday from Jan 1, 2026 to March 10, 2026” + “every Monday from March 15, 2026 to March 31, 2026” to simply “every Monday from Jan 1, 2026 to March 31, 2026”). I wrote a number of intuitive and simple optimization passes as well as some unit tests. To my horror, some passes need to be repeated twice in different parts of the pipeline to get the tests to pass.
evanb 6 hours ago
As a term-rewriting system the rule x-x=0 presumably won’t be in Simplify, it’ll be inside - (or Plus, actually). Instead I’d expect there to be strategies. Pick a strategy using a heuristic, push evaluation as far as it’ll go, pick a strategy, etc. But a lot of the work will be normal evaluation, not Simplify-specific.
noosphr 12 hours ago
More generally it's not at all clear what 'simplify' means.
Is x*x simpler than x^2? Probably? Is sqrt(5)^3 simpler than 5^(3/2)? I don't know.
It entirely depends on what you're going to be doing with the expression later.
henrikeh 2 hours ago
While some comments do point out the general opaqueness of Mathematica, the goal of Simplify is actually documented in Mathematica and something which can be changed: https://reference.wolfram.com/language/ref/ComplexityFunctio...
The default is a balance between leaf count and number of digits. But the documentation page above gives an example of how to nudge the cost function away from specialised functions.
jmyeet 8 hours ago
I think "simplify" is pretty clear here. For trigonometric functions you would expect a trig function and an inverse trig function to be simplified. We all know what we'd expect if we saw sin(arcsin(x)) (ie x). If we saw cos(arcsin(x)) I'll spoil it for you: it simplifies to sqrt(1-x^2).
Hyperbolic functions aren't used as much but the same principle applies. Here the core identity is cosh^2(x) = sinh^2(x) = 1 so:
sinh(arccosh(x))
= sqrt(1 + cosh^2(arccosh(x))
= sqrt(1 + x^2)
You should absolutely expect that from "simplify".tzs 3 hours ago
OK, something weird is going on with HN here.
The first time I looked at the comment above, there was a reply, a reply to that reply, and a reply to the reply to the reply.
Later I came back and this time there were no replies. Since HN won't let you delete a comment that has a reply the only ways a comment chain should be able to go away are (1) the participants delete them in reverse order, or (2) a moderator intervenes.
I came back again and the comments are back!
I wonder if this is related to another comment problem I've seen many times in the past few weeks? I'll be using the "next" or "prev" links on top level comments to move through the comment and will come to a point where that breaks. Next reaches a comment that it will not go past. Coming from below prev will also not go past that point. Examining the links, next and prev are pointing to a nonexistent comment.
noosphr 5 hours ago
How is going from two functions with one variable to three functions with a variable and a constant a simplification?
jmyeet 5 hours ago
nurettin 5 hours ago
In this case, a heuristic like "less parameters, less operators and less function calls" covers all the cases.
oh_my_goodness 2 hours ago
It doesn't, because we might consider different outputs "simple" depending on what we're going to do next.
SillyUsername 11 hours ago
I've only an A-Level in Further Maths from 1997, but understand complex numbers and have come across complex inverse trig functions before.
My takeaway for other people like me from this is "computer is correct" because the proof shows that we can't define arccosh using a single proof across the entire complex plane (specifically imaginary, including infinity).
The representation of this means we have both complex functions that are defined as having coverage of infinity, and arccosh, that a proof exists in only one direction at a time during evaluation.
This distinction is a quirk in mathematics but means that the equation won't be simplified because although it looks like it can, the underlying proof is "one sided" (-ve or +ve) which means the variables are fundamentally not the same at evaluation time unless 2 approaches to the range definition are combined.
The QED is that this distinction won't be shown in the result's representation, leading to the confusion that it should have been simplified.
kzrdude 5 hours ago
Simple rule to keep in mind that even math savvy people seem to forget about is that: sqrt(x²) = |x| with bars for absolute value.
For a programmer, it's clear that we have lost the sign information but not the magnitude.
Simple. Makes most sign and solution reasoning explicit instead of implicit when solving quadratics or otherwise working with square roots.
tzs 3 hours ago
> Simple rule to keep in mind that even math savvy people seem to forget about is that: sqrt(x²) = |x| with bars for absolute value.
i would disagree with that (pun intended).
Almondsetat 4 hours ago
And yet it incorrectly simplifies f(x) = x/x with f(x) = 1
rfc3092 3 hours ago
I believe this is correct: x/x = 1 everywhere except 0, where it has a removable singularity. So you can extend x/x holomorphically to full C.
This is completely different from the phenomenon described in the article: arccosh discontinuity can’t be dealt the same way. In fact complex analysis prefers to deal with it my making functions path-dependent (multi-valued).
newobj 2 hours ago
PLEASE explain "So you can extend x/x holomorphically to full C" to someone with only a BSc in math/cs; something about this thread is giving me an existential crisis right now.
ogogmad 5 hours ago
Does anyone else think that the latest LLMs - some of which can be used locally for free - combined with proof-verifying software like Coq or Lean for mistake-detection, might make many uses of Computer Algebra Systems like Mathematica obsolete?
Certainly, people don't need Wolfram Alpha as much.
On another point, it sucks to know what this means for Algebraic Geometry (the computational variant), which you could partly motivate, until now, for its use in constructing CASes.
densh 4 hours ago
For me Mathematica is much more akin to numpy+sympy+matplotlib+... with absolutely crazy amount of batteries included in a single coherent package with IDE and fantastic documentation. In a way numpy ecosystem already "won" industry users over, yet Wolfram stack is still appealing to me personally for small experiments.
Coq/Lean target very different use cases.