Italian prosecutors seek trial for Amazon, 4 execs in alleged $1.4B tax evasion (reuters.com)
171 points by amarcheschi 5 hours ago
mesmertech 4 hours ago
As a solo indiehacker in Europe, its crazy that I have to be so worried about VAT related things and big tech just goes around the whole thing and doesn't even expect to be charged just fined
amarcheschi 4 hours ago
Well, for once execs are being investigated as well
cbg0 3 hours ago
You only have to be worried if you're doing something illegal, like the guys in the article. Misfiling something won't land you in jail, just some fines at the most. Intent matters quite a bit.
vjvjvjvjghv 2 hours ago
“ just some fines at the most. “
That’s ok for the big players with deep pockets. For the little guy this is a much bigger problem. As it should. It would just be nice if law breaking would be a bigger problem for the bigger companies too.
riffraff an hour ago
bluefirebrand 3 hours ago
When you're not wealthy, "some fines at most" can be a really nasty setback
omnimus 2 hours ago
flerchin 3 hours ago
Honest sellers pay VAT, and scofflaws get sales. Yeah they gotta throw down the gauntlet here or else VAT is only for suckers.
mcs5280 4 hours ago
Let me guess. Jeff/Andy make a donation to a certain someone. Tariffs on Italy are threatened. Case is dropped.
robtherobber 4 hours ago
I think that normally that may be the approach (and I'm not singling out Italy for this, it probably applies to most countries).
On this occasion, however:
> In all previous cases involving other international groups, once a settlement was reached and payment made, prosecutors closed related criminal investigations, either through plea deals or by dropping the cases.
> This time, however, Milan prosecutors did not share the tax authority's approach and decided to press ahead with their probe, leading to a request that the suspects be sent to trial.
mr_00ff00 3 hours ago
Damn, is anyone an expert that can speak to the criminal law involved here?
It’s crazy that executives can jump around the law and not face any criminal charges, then the company picks up the bill (although I’m not ignorant thinking this isn’t usual)
I’m just curious to learn more about how often this is the case and you usually what happens with people afterward
limagnolia 2 hours ago
nobodyandproud 3 hours ago
napolux 36 minutes ago
It usually works more like:
- we want 1.4B, but it will take 10 years in courts
- best I can do is 800M (or even lower)
- ok, we'll take it
epolanski 29 minutes ago
Not only tech giants, everybody from celebrities to random Joes can get away with it.
My mother's husband owed 70k+ EUR in taxes and at some point the judge proposed and he agreed to 2800 euros.
The trick is to not have a bank account in your name only, you have it joint with a child/spouse and they can't take your money. Nor they can take your house, if you only have one.
Eventually under those situations the judges try to take anything rather than nothing.
I'm not defending this situation, just saying it's widespread and the fact that every two governments come one that does a "condono", which is essentially "let's agree with tax evaders for some 50% of the tax they owe so they are happy and we see something" doesn't help.
Harsher punishment should be warranted, but you can't go to prison for tax evasion.
zoobab 4 hours ago
"Tariffs on Italy are threatened. Case is dropped."
Justice is independent in most EU countries.
beardyw 2 hours ago
But I think tariffs cannot be imposed on individual countries in the EU. At least that was how I understood the situation with Spain.
riffraff an hour ago
cbg0 3 hours ago
There's quite a few asterisks that need to be appended to "independent".
gpderetta 3 hours ago
myrmidon 4 hours ago
It would be really nice to have a few relevant numbers in the article for context.
If this is just from foreign sellers operating on amazon.it, then 1.4B of evaded taxes sounds like a lot to me, because the total revenue should be well under 50B/y, so this would be a significant fraction of total sales tax (and I'd expect most sellers to not be foreign and thus unaffected).
Would be quite nice to see rich people held accountable for once, curious how this will go.
philipwhiuk 4 hours ago
> and I'd expect most sellers to not be foreign and thus unaffected
Most sellers probably are foreign.
Yizahi 3 hours ago
Billionaire doesn't pay tax: let's settle with you paying half of all stolen money as a fine and we'll drop the case.
A regular citizen doesn't pay tax: lets jail or deport you, bar the entry for a decade, take away your home, car and anything you own in general and make you unable to find job for the rest of your life. Also your tax is double that of the billionaire, glhf ;) .
creddit 2 hours ago
In Italy, the only entities consistently paying taxes are large corporations. Literally everyone else is constantly evading them.
lormayna 29 minutes ago
As Italian, I really disagree. The only entities that pay all the taxes are employees because the taxes are collected directly from the salaries.
Big companies have the opportunity to make tax elusion (there is a reason why many Italian companies have legal HQ in Netherlands or Luxembourg), small companies, artisans and freelancers usually avoid to pajly VAT
tekla 21 minutes ago
https://academic.oup.com/book/36357/chapter/319888230#426336...
> In percentage terms this means that during the 1970s between 15 and 20 percent of Italians evaded taxes while the rate climbed to 26 percent in the 1980s. In the 1990s, tax evasion fell again, hovering between 15 and 20 percent. Workers employed in manufacturing evade very little, whereas the highest evasion rates can be found among the self-employed
> The severity of evasion becomes obvious when we consider that the Italian state annually collects only a total of €350 billion while losing €250 billion through evasion (D’Attoma 2016).
> If one asks Italians why they evade taxes, they primarily say that they evade because everyone else does so
> A distant second is the reason that Italians would be more likely to pay taxes if they had the feeling that the state would spend their money more wisely. Much lower in the ranking come issues such as the soft penalties for evasive behavior, the complexity of the tax rules, and the unlikeliness of being caught. A total of 87.1 percent of all Italians think that their fellow citizens evade taxes
randoments 2 hours ago
as a freelancer i must be doing something wrong then.
creddit an hour ago
newswasboring an hour ago
Taxes dont get deducted from people's salaries?
riffraff an hour ago
htx80nerd 2 hours ago
Rich people provide huge economic stimulant to the economy in many different ways.
RankingMember an hour ago
Even if evidence did agree with this uncited, broad assertion (I've seen nothing to that effect), it'd still be an indefensible justification for inequity in punishment.
dmix 41 minutes ago
wat10000 an hour ago
So do poor people. Apply the law equally.
keybored 2 hours ago
The sources for that are plenty of billionaire-funded think tanks. Don’t worry there are sources.