Iliad fragment found in Roman-era mummy (thehistoryblog.com)

189 points by wise_blood 3 days ago

ajxs 14 hours ago

In case anyone doesn't know, Oxyrhynchus is a major source of archaeological discoveries. Particularly ancient (Ptolemaic/Roman Egypt) papyrus fragments recovered from an ancient landfill on the outskirts of the city. Notably some of the earliest-known Christian textual artefacts were found there (the actual earliest fragments came from elsewhere in Egypt). It turns out that Egypt's hot and dry climate provides the perfect environment for their long-term preservation.

thaumasiotes 13 hours ago

> It turns out that Egypt's hot and dry climate provides the perfect environment for their long-term preservation.

Cold and dry would be just as good. It's the dryness that matters.

vlovich123 13 hours ago

heat speeds up oxidation/ accelerates reactions but also decreases relative humidity for a constant moisture constant.

tadfisher 11 hours ago

staplung 12 hours ago

Sadly, the article says nothing about how old the fragment is or how it compares to other early copies of the Iliad. Somewhat amazingly, the earliest complete copy of the Iliad is from around 950 C.E.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetus_A

anon291 11 hours ago

It's not that surprising. The earliest complete copies of many ancient texts is similarly dated. For example, the earliest copy of the Rg Veda is dated to about that age as well. It's hard to keep complete copies of big books.

wavefunction 9 hours ago

As well, both the Iliad and Vedas are originally oral traditions. Likely there were different versions and different parts of the stories were emphasized to appeal to their audiences and local tastes and current events. Something that can still be apparent in historical texts but probably greatly reduced by the function of printed versions presenting a singular "authoritative version."

z3phyr 7 hours ago

GnarfGnarf 2 hours ago

It’s heartbreaking to think of what treasures were lost when they were using mummies as locomotive fuel in the 19th century.

sashank_1509 2 hours ago

wtf I’m going to wager that this is a local myth. Just using corpses as fuel feels a bit antithetical to human traditions

varjag 3 hours ago

On the timescale it's like getting buried today with a copy of Beowulf.

notorandit 14 hours ago

I Hope more and more fragments of anything lost is found.

The burn down of Alexandria library was a pity

thordenmark 2 hours ago

It is not an uncommon view among scholars that humidity and age caused more papyri to be lost than the burning down of the library of Alexandria did. Many of which would have survived by being repeatedly copied and disseminated throughout the region.

bluGill 13 hours ago

wrqvrwvq 11 hours ago

People say this without any evidence. This ai-post is just regurgitating hn-thread "received wisdom". The evidence for the existence of a library is thin and hard to piece together, but points to more than a myth. I appreciate that people want real proof of anything, but dumping an ai-slop summary is hardly doing any better than accepting the existence of a large library.

adastra22 11 hours ago

jmyeet 13 hours ago

This is a common refrain but in reality I'm not sure it made much difference. Papyrus just doesn't age well and most manuscripts from this era would've been on papyrus.

What really decided what texts survived and what didn't was monastic traditions in in the Dark Ages and Middle Ages [1]. At this time, a monk might spend their entire life transcribing a particularly long manuscript. The materials were also expensive. So monasteries were selective in what got retain and unsurprisingly it skewed heavily to texts of religious significance and then to texts of significance to, say, Roman and Greek tradition and history given that monasteries were European.

[1]: https://spokenpast.com/articles/medieval-monks-erased-preser...

jrumbut 12 hours ago

It was a little before that even.

Greek was the language of most fields of learning besides law in the Roman Empire. But the Greeks themselves wrote works on these papyrus scrolls that crumbled fast, so anything not actively used by the Romans was quickly lost.

There's a good chance that if the papyrus scrolls in any library (Alexandria or otherwise) weren't being copied regularly they were crumbling even before they burned or were lost to time for other reasons.

Towards the end of the Roman Empire, a few philosophers took the time to transmit Greek knowledge in Latin as knowledge of Greek faded in western Europe. What these guys happened to translate was the basis of most of European learning in philosophy, math, and other fields for centuries.

But they weren't monks (the most famous, Boethius, was not Christian either but a lot of later writers thought he was), the monks in scriptorium came later and grew slowly.

St. Benedict said that monks should be taught to read and do so regularly, which required copying books, but he prioritized physical work (to create self-sufficient communities) and prayer. But future Benedictines responded to the incentives of the time and began scaling up the copying and doing less agricultural work as the years went on.

canjobear 10 hours ago

nonethewiser 13 hours ago

Thanks for sharing. Maybe not as common as you think. I never heard that before.

wavefunction 9 hours ago

It probably held a bunch of relatively boring local administrative records as far as "documents found only in the Library of Alexandria" from what I've read. Of course some scholars of the boring administrative history of the world would be thrilled though.

krapp 8 hours ago

As far as I know the vast majority of cuneiform we have is essentially administrative records, tax record and receipts. And homework.

That's the stuff that tells us how societies and cultures really worked.

andrepd 10 hours ago

Everybody knows it's under Uncle Scrooge's money bin. Spoiler alert.

ButlerianJihad 11 hours ago

For some reason, there is a gigantic and ancient monastery on Mount Sinai with a commensurate collection of ancient manuscripts and papyri. Totally coincidence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Catherine%27s_Monastery#...

How did all that stuff get up there? It was holy angels. #itsalwaysangels

mistrial9 11 hours ago

those are certainly Christian curated documents. The previous six hundred+ years had seen the development of vivid and exotic religion, philosophy and arts. The Christians famously slew the Dragons, condemned Herod as a sorcerer and astrologer, and replaced the Apollo cults with the scripture that many know well.

I imagine that the Library of Alexandria was plural and diverse with respect to the traditions and inquiry that was represented there.

wavefunction 9 hours ago

andsoitis 8 hours ago

According to Iliad 2.645-670, in the direct vicinity of Egypt (notably 1000+ years before those mummies got wrapped) ships from Rhodes (Lindos, Ialysos and Kameiros) and also Crete had taken part in the Trojan War (Knossos and Gortyn, Phaistos and Rhytion).

caycep 12 hours ago

for some reason this read like the "Headless Body in a Topless Bar" headline...maybe the antiquities equivalent

horsh1 12 hours ago

So why would they bury a man with a book?

tollenda 12 hours ago

It wasn't a whole book, it was cartonnage: scrap paper from discarded books and documents, assembled and glued together like papier-mâché. The cartonnage was used to make funerary masks and some other parts of the mummification apparatus. There is a whole subfield of archaeology that deals with deciphering and identifying book fragments found in the form of scrap paper in Greco-Roman era Egyptian mummies.

jrumbut 11 hours ago

I find it interesting how uncommon it is for this to yield new works.

It seems like it's always the same handful of texts. Ancient readers liked what they liked and weren't out for variety it seems.

At the same time, Juvenal has a whole satire about how everyone is trying their hand at writing books and mentions in another how booksellers are always getting new volumes.

I spend way too much time pining for the chance to read the other parts of the Trojan Cycle, even though the ancient said they were much lower quality. Like your favorite show getting canceled.

vulcan01 11 hours ago

RobotToaster 3 hours ago

AlexeyBrin 12 hours ago

Many cultures bury their dead with objects that the person enjoyed during their lifetime.

This is present even today, I saw a burial in Eastern Europe where the parents put a game of chess and toys in the coffin. While it will do no good to the deceased my theory is that it is a way for the living to deal with the loss.

card_zero 11 hours ago

I wonder now and then about the extent of dissent and cynicism in ancient Egypt. This is a vague question, I know, not least because the scope covers thousands of years. But officially, everybody gets grave goods in proportion to their status, especially their closeness to royalty, and these are provided so that they can have chairs and games and sports and clothes and food and so on in the next world, to make approximately four out of their eight forms of soul feel comfortable. Then these grave goods are often immediately stolen, probably by the same priestly officials who organized the burial. I wonder if ancient Egyptians silently thought their own religion ridiculous.

lukan 8 hours ago

zozbot234 9 hours ago

> This is present even today, I saw a burial in Eastern Europe where the parents put a game of chess and toys in the coffin. While it will do no good to the deceased my theory is that it is a way for the living to deal with the loss.

Spoiler: they do that so that future grave robbers and archaeologists will know all about the dead person's lifestyle. Surely that kind of everlasting glory has to be worth something to the deceased, one would think?

kelnos 11 hours ago

Well, sure. All of our death rituals are for the living left behind, not for the dead.

callamdelaney 12 hours ago

Maybe it's more like how they used to wrap fish and chips in newspaper

nextaccountic 12 hours ago

Maybe he liked that book? Not different from modern day burials

https://notebookofghosts.com/2016/11/21/a-list-of-weird-thin...

quantummagic 12 hours ago

Why do we bury men in a suit?

0x1ceb00da 8 hours ago

Pearly gates is basically an interview.

castis 3 hours ago

ButlerianJihad 11 hours ago

While the collection is now termed by modern scholars as "Book 2 of the Iliad", there was no such thing as a "book" as we know it, in those times; there were codices and scrolls and manuscripts, etc., and everyone's favorite: the palimpsest!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palimpsest

adrian_b 5 hours ago

"Volume" means "scroll" in Latin.

"Book" has been used to translate the Latin word "liber", which is the word used by the Ancient Romans for the parts of a bigger document, each of which would have been written on a different scroll.

Latin "liber" was used to translate the Greek words "biblion" or "byblos", which are thus the oldest source of the word "book". "Byblos" originally meant papyrus in Greek, but later it was also used for the parts of a big document. A later form of this word, which was more specialized with the meaning of "material for writing" or "book", is "biblion" (a diminutive), having the plural "ta biblia" = "the books", which is the source of English "bible".

lostlogin 12 hours ago

Imagine digging in that material. Tunnelling that out would be awful.