Spanish archaeologists discover trove of ancient shipwrecks in Bay of Gibraltar (theguardian.com)
115 points by 1659447091 2 days ago
somebehemoth 14 hours ago
I want to ask a dumb question: if it was known that this area was high traffic, why are archaeologists only just now discovering these wrecks? Is it not obvious to search this area for wrecks given its history? The article hints that climate change is increasing urgency. Is the case here that we knew there should be wrecks here, but climate change made the search happen?
darksaints 12 hours ago
I've actually had this conversation before with an archeologist with some naval archeology experience.
Shipwreck hunting is ridiculously expensive. The resources required to exhaustively explore 100 sqm of space is probably 1000x of the resources required to do it on land. There aren't any easy shortcuts: radar doesn't work underwater, sonar does but is extremely low resolution, lidar works pretty well but only if the water is very shallow and clear, underwater drones have extremely limited mobility and communication capability. A lot of funding in archeology tends to go to easier or higher probability wins, which has mostly been aerial lidar in heavy vegetation areas for the past 10-15 years.
The best shipwreck hunters rely almost entirely on probabilistic models for where they might find shipwrecks, and the most useful probabilistic models have all developed in the last 30-40 years. In fact, some of the best probabilistic models like Bayesian Search Theory actually originated as a formalization of heuristics that were already used in treasure/shipwreck hunting.
In that respect, I would argue that this find is actually the result of recent advances in probabilistic modeling (along with other advances in data engineering with respect to extremely messy historical data sources) that have just barely gotten accurate enough to start getting the funding it needs to do the harder work of actually working on the sea floor.
troad 12 hours ago
It's also worth remembering how little money goes into archaeology in general.
I can think of two nationally-significant archaeological sites in Central Europe - both were partially excavated about fifty years ago, to varying but fairly limited degrees, and then gently reburied, because there wasn't enough money to keep things going.
The site of one has a poorly-trafficked tourist centre today, the other is a clearing with nothing more than a tourist plaque. Both are likely candidates for previous capital cities, so they are obviously significant, but the money just isn't there to do anything about them. I seem to recall reading somewhere that over 90% of one of the sites remains unexcavated.
These are land sites, so relatively inexpensive compared to sea sites. If this is how willing we are to fund nationally-significant land digs, I imagine sea archaeology would be comparatively even more impossible to fund.
darksaints 7 hours ago
analog31 8 hours ago
Larrikin 8 hours ago
__coaxialcabal 35 minutes ago
Are there open source examples of this? I'm not treasure hunting, just curious what sort of data they use, etc.
__coaxialcabal 26 minutes ago
rimeice 8 hours ago
darksaints 7 hours ago
mpreda 4 hours ago
Another solution: train wild dolphins to recognize the goal (e.g. sunken ships), do the scan for you, and receive some compensation in exchange for the work they do (tasty food? play balls?). Should check the depth range of dolphins.
pvaldes 3 hours ago
epenn 14 hours ago
While I can't speak for these wrecks specifically, archeology as a field is chronically underfunded. They have to pick and choose their battles.
narag 13 hours ago
That's the main reason. Also marine archeology is expensive. I once heard an archeologist saying that if the rests have passed centuries underwater, one more is less harmful than looters.
greggsy 13 hours ago
ionwake an hour ago
grew up around there, honestly, just not much going on other than bored rich folk and poor folk trying to make a living.
BurningFrog 14 hours ago
There are VASTLY more interesting archeological sites than the world has resources to investigate!
lukan 13 hours ago
Yes, the priorities are rather to invest into expensive hardware, to blow up interesting archeological sites.
jumpyjumps 13 hours ago
The orcas have been sinking boats for longer than we thought.
pelasaco 5 hours ago
teleforce 10 hours ago
Fun facts, Gibraltar was named after Tariq ibn Ziyad, a famous muslim Berber commander of the Umayyad Caliphate that conquered most of the Spain and some part of French territories in the early 8th century CE [1].
Then after the conquest, came the exiled young Umayyad prince (escaping from by the later Abbasid Caliphate), who settled in Spain to create a long lasting around 800 years (that's more than European living in America now) muslim Spanish empire with its knowledge center in Toledo. This center contains many books translations and also many new books by muslim scholars. Famous books examples including Almagest Arabic translation that was copied and translated further into Latin, and studied by Copernicus and Galileo [2]. Of course they are other muslim astronomy books and ideas that Copernicus and Galileo studied and copied but never cited properly [3].
Another famous book is Muqaddimah by Ibnu-Rushd or Averroes that's widely considered as the very first work dealing with the social sciences of sociology, demography and cultural history [4].
This center was later captured in 11th century CE, and this event essentially started the Western Renaissance movement in Europe.
Legend has it, in order to motivate his troops, Tariq ordered to scuttle their entire ships armada, before advancing into Spain [5]. Perhaps some of the sinked ships are part of Tariq's original armada, but these ships were intentionally sinked not by accidents.
His act of bravery were copied and followed by later Spanish conquerers but as usual it's not been properly credited to Tariq's original efforts [6].
[1] Tariq ibn Ziyad:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_ibn_Ziyad
[2] Galileo's handwritten notes found in ancient astronomy text (42 comments):
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47263938
[3] Islamic Astronomy and Copernicus [pdf]:
(https://www.tuba.gov.tr/files/yayinlar/bilim-ve-dusun/TUBA-9...)
[4] Muqaddimah of Ibnu Khaldin:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqaddimah
[5] The Legend of Tariq ibn Ziyad and the Burning of Ships:
https://arabic-for-nerds.com/islam/conquest-andalus/
[6] Richard A. Luecke - Scuttle Your Ships before Advancing: And Other Lessons from History.
elnatro 7 hours ago
> 800 years (that's more than European living in America now) muslim Spanish empire with its knowledge center in Toledo
The Muslim dominion of the Iberian Peninsula did not last 800 years. The Muslim invasion started in 711 CE, and by 1085 Toledo has fallen back to the Christian kingdom of León. Granada would eventually be conquered in 1492, but most of the old Visigothic Kingdom was already in the hands of the Christians.
fakedang 6 hours ago
711 AD to 1492 AD is a good 781 years.
elnatro 2 hours ago
Bayart 3 hours ago
> This center was later captured in 11th century CE, and this event essentially started the Western Renaissance movement in Europe.
Islamic contribution within the context of European history should be both acknowledged and recognized as being autoctonous, but attributing to it things that well attested through other pathways works against it and reinforces myths historians are toiling to get rid of.
The Renaissance as we know it was kickstarted by the conquest of Constantinople in 1204 by the French and Italians, that's well documented and broadly agreed on by historians. All of this happened on the foundations laid down from the 11th c. onwards as the post-Carolingian world was stabilized.
yorwba 3 hours ago
It's not like Tariq ibn Ziyad invented the concept of intentionally making a retreat impossible in order to compel soldiers to fight. There are proverbs about this kind of thing that predate him by centuries: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%A0%B4%E9%87%9C%E6%B2%89%E... It's probably a popular story to tell because it raises the stakes and provides for dramatic tension: either the battle is won or the army will be annihilated. But I suspect there've been quite a few unlucky commanders who tried this, got annihilated, and never had their heroism praised in history books.
lifestyleguru 2 hours ago
You can use this technique during job interviews by bringing your own padlock and employment contract, and a rope just in case.
stavros 10 hours ago
This is off topic, but is it legal for websites to ask me to either accept tracking or pay? I thought the GDPR made tracking truly optional.
nottorp 5 hours ago
The Guardian is in the UK, but I've seen dialogs like that even on some german sites, so i guess it's legal.
petesergeant an hour ago
> is it legal for websites to ask me to either accept tracking or pay
It's complicated and actively being ruled on in different ways by different countries.
victorbjorklund 10 hours ago
It is a gray zone. Some national regulatory agencies has said ”pay or consent” is compatible with GDPR and some have said it is not. It hasn’t yet been tested by the EU court.
gib444 6 hours ago
You can't usually force a business to do business with you (i.e. serve you content, for free) even in the EU
IANAL but the legal argument seems pretty simple to me based on that concept, so I wonder if that's why it hasn't gone to court yet?
Do we as users even want it to? Imagine if the organisations won...