Two EA-18 fighter jets collide at Mountain Home airshow, pilots ejected safely (idahonews.com)

129 points by ChrisArchitect 6 hours ago

ak217 an hour ago

What are Growlers doing performing aerobatic maneuvers at air shows? They have tens of millions in specialized extra equipment on board. Seems like a poor use of taxpayer money. Send regular F-18s, not the rare expensive ones that look the same.

david_shi 11 minutes ago

When you have exorbitant privilege you tend to use it.

Waterluvian 5 hours ago

I don’t know anything about anything but it feels kind of amazing that all four ejected with good looking parachutes given the orientation of the conglomerated plane.

somenameforme 10 minutes ago

Something that seems interesting to me is that they all ejected at nearly the identical time. I'm curious if those systems are automated in case of scenarios like an unconscious pilot. If so, there may be automated clearance/angle systems, but that's speculation on top of speculation.

stephen_g 4 hours ago

Yeah it's pretty incredible, the way they came together the plane on top came pretty close to blocking the canopy of the bottom one, if it had gone a bit differently those pilots could have had nowhere to go but into the bottom of the other aircraft!

Levitating 2 hours ago

I think these ejection seats work in more or less any orientation.

I am more surprised that they didn't immediately blow up or lose control after colliding. Or even that the crew took that long to eject.

dboreham 2 hours ago

The aircraft appear to have become "stuck" to each other perhaps due to aerodynamic forces similar to how a piece of paper gets stuck to a car windshield (probably something to do with one of the Bernoullis). There wasn't much of an impact to cause a destructive event such as compressor stall. Perhaps the pilots were waiting to see if the aircraft would become un-stuck, or to get clear airspace into which they could eject?

Rover222 7 minutes ago

stingraycharles an hour ago

binary132 4 hours ago

I had the same thought, but those cockpit modules are really designed to maximize the odds of safe ejection, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they consider the possibility of failure and escape as part of the stunt design. Still, it’s amazing everything worked out, especially at that low of an altitude.

dbcurtis 4 hours ago

Do we know if the pilots are OK? Yes, ejection can save your life, but even in a best-case scenario the forces on the human body are incredibly ugly. I know a former combat-rated RAF pilot that had to eject from a Harrier because of a low-altitude bird strike. After 6 months in the infirmary, he emerged 2cm shorter, combat rating gone forever.

jcgrillo 3 hours ago

avalys 5 hours ago

These are pretty expensive and specialized electronic warfare planes that are identical to a regular F18 in aerodynamic performance. Sucks to lose two of them for an airshow display. Isn’t that what the Blue Angels are for?

jterrys 4 hours ago

This actually begs the question...why the fuck would they use THESE for an airshow? They're aesthetically identical to F18 from a ground silhouette perspective. They blew through some really expensive planes from a much smaller fleet for a pony show that any regular F18 could've been part of.

jmward01 an hour ago

They do training all day every day in these planes. Air shows are probably less exciting than the stuff they practice to do. Also, while they a generically '18's' they are EA-18g's and possibly have enough differences to require maintaining a separate NATOPs check from the other variants. (never flown one so I don't actually know though :). Either way, other than the blue angles who can't be everywhere and don't represent the diversity of platforms out in the fleet, there really aren't dedicated airshow aircraft out there.

kube-system 2 hours ago

These were locally stationed, just over the border in Washington. The Blue Angels are in Florida today.

mlyle 40 minutes ago

barbazoo 4 hours ago

What is the real purpose of airshows anyway? It always seems like very elevated risk for very little reward but I might just be missing what the reward is.

rootusrootus 4 hours ago

Too many comments are trying to overanalyze, or just show off their insightful cynicism.

We do airshows because they are cool. Lots of us love airplanes. Humans do all kinds of activities for entertainment that are not strictly justifiable returns on investment. I hope we never get that boring, though every year we do seem to go that direction.

dweinus 16 minutes ago

operatingthetan 3 hours ago

bigyabai 3 hours ago

yepyoukno 3 hours ago

cameronh90 39 minutes ago

Probably just because it's cool.

I'm sure there's some bean-counter calculus involving recruitment, PR, demonstration of capabilities, they were going to be doing training flights anyway so why not do a few in public, etc. but they're more rationalisations rather than reasons.

I hope it stays that way too. A world where we take everything away unless it fits into the 5 year ROI spreadsheet sounds dreadful. In any case there'll a long tail of nth-order outcomes that we can't simply reduce down to a risk-reward calculation.

There's probably some deep reason why humans just have a drive to show off their awesome stuff.

Spooky23 2 hours ago

It attracts talented people.

I remember going to an air show when I was 12 with a good friend. Walking through the C-5 and then seeing a thunderbirds display just captured my friends imagination in a way that’s hard to describe. He ended up becoming a Marine Aviator and basically started planning that path that day.

NikolaNovak 2 hours ago

For whom?

For the audience - we love airplanes and love seeing them. I personally prefer the ground portion of air shows, where I can see and sometimes touch the airplanes up close, talk to the pilots and engineers, and generally have a nice day outside :). The aerial component is impressive too, depending on the show. Sometimes it's a bit drawn out.

For the organizers, typically it's a mix of profit and also organizer enthusiasm - a LOT of air show is basically hard-working volunteers.

For the participants, depends - the private entries are there for fun and visibility and showpersonship, cammarederie etc. The armed forces are there to promote and recruit and invoke patriotism and show off and impress.

Ultimately though, if airplanes aren't your kink, you probably won't emotionally / internally understand and that's ok. It's like world rally championship or formula 1 or anything redbull does, a risky entertaining spectacle.

blueone 24 minutes ago

For recruitment, awareness, to boost civilian confidence/engagement/support in the military as a whole. The blue angels and thunderbirds are the best of the best when it comes to air shows because the best pilots are used and they train extensively.

chilmers 4 hours ago

Presumably recruitment and PR for the air force, and morale for the aviators, as they can show off their training and skills to friends, family and the general public.

zabzonk 4 hours ago

tonypapousek 4 hours ago

If we view this through the lens of the “American civil religion“, these spectacles aren’t too unlike crowds of folks gathering to witness miracles.

ericmay 4 hours ago

ericmay 4 hours ago

Crashes are rare. Exposure to the civilian for what their tax dollars are paying for, opportunities for pilots to become more skilled and train other pilots for advanced maneuvers. Things like that. Overall there’s not too much meat on the bone as far as criticisms are concerned.

vjvjvjvjghv 3 hours ago

Forgeties79 4 hours ago

russdill 33 minutes ago

It's a planned event at a specific time that requires training, planning, and coordination between multiple organizations.

mpyne 4 hours ago

Recruiting for those considering careers, and marketing more broadly for those who pay taxes.

the__alchemist 2 hours ago

This is a question that comes up internally as well. It gets into questions like "Why do we fund the Thunderbirds etc". I will hold off on my 2c because the arguments are already covered!

Immediately after a show like this, yes, it looks foolish to lose 2 combat planes and almost 4 aircrew for a performative event. Looking at it more generally, it's a tradeoff.

npunt 4 hours ago

Public relations for mil spending

petcat 4 hours ago

nsxwolf 4 hours ago

All I know is I’m glad I don’t live in the world where this kind of reasoning dominates. All the greatest things I’ve seen in my life have been arguably pointless in this way.

dudul 4 hours ago

Entertainment, education about avionic/technology/engineering, military PR and recruiting, boost local economy, etc.

What's the purpose of motor sports? What's the purpose of a firework? What's the purpose of extreme sports exhibitions? mountain climbing expeditions?

streetfighter64 4 hours ago

Posturing, showing of your military capabilities towards the enemy. Raising morale (aka war propaganda) towards your own population.

Contrary to popular belief, war is mostly about public opinion, not raw strength. Even since (before) roman times, you almost never fight to the last man, you fight until you route the enemy.

Schiendelman 4 hours ago

userbinator 3 hours ago

DonHopkins 4 hours ago

The first rule of Flight Club is: you do not talk about Flight Club.

mhh__ 2 hours ago

"Because it's there"

ElProlactin 4 hours ago

You need to remind the plebs why they're citizens of the wealthiest country the world has ever known but still struggle to afford healthcare.

rootusrootus 3 hours ago

mc3301 4 hours ago

vkou 3 hours ago

The purpose of airshows is to boost recruitment of cannon fodder for imperial conquests and to remind us that we are strong and the enemy is weak.

Same reason as for military parades.

jcgrillo 3 hours ago

If the Internet is to be believed they're not actually more expensive than an F/A-18, and as far as military aircraft go.. not the most expensive. But a ~$150M accident is nothing to sneeze at.

dboreham 2 hours ago

Perhaps the internet price excludes the EW payload? Seems like a plane with a load of electronics gear and transmitters/antennas would cost more than the same plane sans that stuff?

dboreham 2 hours ago

I'm not sure on the history of why there's a Growler display team, but they regularly perform at air shows, even air shows where the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds are also performing. Their display isn't formation aerobatics, more a sort of fancy fly-by.

Air force, Navy and Marines have many display teams in addition to the two everyone knows. E.g. there's an F-35 display team and an F-22 display team. Usually they fly single though.

yubblegum 4 hours ago

My god that tv website is chockful of javascript from all over.

If you wish to avoid it: https://nitter.net/search?f=tweets&q=mountain+home+air

Riany an hour ago

That's good that all pilots ejected safely. But what if it fails? Still, losing two specialized aircraft during an airshow feels like very expensive, I doubt if it's really worth it to risks these pilots life on it

jandrewrogers 21 minutes ago

The US has over 10,000 military aircraft in service and thousands of spares sitting in storage. The US is quite arguably the only military that can casually absorb losses like these.

This specific aircraft is being phased out over the next several years. Assuming these still had some miles left on the airframe, they likely would have been put in cold storage a few years from now.

arwhatever 4 hours ago

That maneuver they were attempting looks WILD. Would have been amazing to have pulled of. Or, perhaps to have regularly pulled off until today. I'm guessing that must be some sort of vectored thrust trickery.

rogerrogerr 2 hours ago

They weren’t attempting anything, just repositioning for the next pass. They were flying away from the audience. They lost track of each other.

dboreham 2 hours ago

The video, apart from the apparent loss of situation awareness by the following pilot, seems to show the leader making an aggressive left turn basically into the path of the other aircraft. I'm four hundred miles or so from the location but we've had some weird weather here today, and I've heard it was even more weird in Idaho. Reports of high wind speeds and gusts. I wondered if the lead aircraft had been hit by some sort of atmospheric event that pushed it into the path of the other when it happened to be too close to correct.

bigyabai 4 hours ago

I don't think anything after the second jet's merge was deliberate. NASA's HARV is the only F/A-18 with a thrust vectoring exhaust designed for it, and it's doubtful that similar kit would go on an EW jet.

What's shown in the video appears to be some form of slipstreaming by the chase craft that causes them both to lose pitch authority, pulling up into a stall state and then a yaw tailslide.

angled 37 minutes ago

Cue the development of a limpet drone that would be enough to take down one of these birds in a non-destructive way… although perhaps these ones in particular would be uniquely positioned to deal with such adversaries.

booleanbetrayal an hour ago

Since the negative PR effects of exploding planes undermine the intended positive promotional aspects of conducting air shows, we should probably just halt and save money, right?

Groxx 4 hours ago

Is there much of a way to recover from that kind of glomping? Kinda seems like the aerodynamics might hold them together (as the noses are somewhat pointed together), or with enough speed rip them apart chaotically since they're a bit skewed (which could be worse than ejecting early).

It seems pretty obvious that ejecting is the right choice either way, but it makes me wonder if there's any alternative in this kind of scenario.

Merad 2 hours ago

Basically all modern fighters since the 1980s are aerodynamically unstable and require a computer to fly. A collision like this is almost certainly going to do major damage to the airframe (screwing up its aerodynamics) and maybe flight controls as well. I suspect the plane will be well outside the parameters that the flight controls software can deal with, making stable flight impossible.

rootusrootus 4 hours ago

Depending on how much damage was incurred during contact, since they were already flying predominantly the same direction & speed, at a higher altitude they might have uncoupled and regained controlled flight. Examples of more grievously damaged airplanes have landed in the past. I don't think they had any real hope if they stayed joined, tho.

amelius 5 hours ago

I wonder how you can make the decision to eject in such a short timespan.

MrMember 4 hours ago

They train for it. When people who have ejected talk about it they basically say it's automatic. Things go south they pull the handle on instinct.

ridgeguy 3 hours ago

One has to be trained to do it, the untrained tendency is to wait too long. There's a USAF film on Youtube titled "Ejection Decision" that discusses this and shows how little time there is to make that choice.

kube-system an hour ago

    if(oh shit) { pull(); }
is the only way

newsclues 4 hours ago

dudul 4 hours ago

At this point you barely "make the decision". They train and train and train to the point where it's automatic as soon as they know there's no way to avoid the crash.

gausswho 5 hours ago

What an odd collision. The way they remain in tandem after contact is uncanny, almost as though they were not under direct control.

chalupa-supreme 4 hours ago

They probably went into a stall (loss of lift) after collision. So they would have lost all control.

Their controls would probably feel all mushy and unresponsive at that point.

Thaxll 4 hours ago

Once again, thanks Martin-Baker, 4 lives saved.

zabzonk 3 hours ago

And 4 new members of the Tie Club: https://martin-baker.com/tie-club/

ProAm 2 hours ago

I cant wait to pay for that with my tax dollars.

testfoobar 2 hours ago

Tax dollars really don't pay for things in the US Federal Government.

Deficit spending leading to an ever rising debt is the source of continued spending. When Debt/GDP grows, we're spending ever more money that we don't have.

Total Debt:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEBTN

Total Debt/GDP

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEGDQ188S

m348e912 an hour ago

You're not wrong, but exorbitant deficit spending has its own dire consequences. (eventually) Not that I am telling you anything you don't already know.