Venezuela reveals $240B in debt it cannot pay (~$100B more than expected) (euronews.com)
72 points by cs702 2 hours ago
adjejmxbdjdn 2 hours ago
Smart move to acknowledge this and go for the debt restructuring while the current U.S. president sees Venezuela as his major foreign policy win.
The government will be able to leverage that to get the U.S. government to push for far more favorable terms for Venezuela than it ever would have otherwise.
legitster 2 hours ago
It's really absurd how well the Maduros kidnapping plan worked. Without even changing the party in power, Trump can pretend Venezuela is reformed and do all of the economic normalization a liberal president never would have gotten away with.
But the back-to-back policy disasters are otherwise a good reminder that a broken clock is only right twice a day.
ozgrakkurt 2 hours ago
> economic normalization
You mean the looting
ErneX 36 minutes ago
fennecbutt an hour ago
swarnie an hour ago
pphysch an hour ago
It's way too early to declare total victory. US also swiftly deposed Chavez, but Chavismo came roaring back.
Maduro himself is unlikely to escape his abduction, but the actual power structures and grassroots opposition to Washington's totalitarianism remains across LatAm.
marcosdumay an hour ago
NooneAtAll3 an hour ago
refulgentis 2 hours ago
Are they doing any normalization? I've fallen behind and assumed it just became dictator apparatus protection as long as there was flattery, i.e. tell us we're in charge and we'll let you ship oil wherever.
legitster an hour ago
znpy 2 hours ago
> It's really absurd how well the Maduros kidnapping plan worked.
It's almost like people currently in the white house know what they're doing, right? Who would have thought! /s
dralley an hour ago
arrrg an hour ago
outside1234 an hour ago
refulgentis 2 hours ago
mothballed 2 hours ago
undefined 2 hours ago
sourcegrift 2 hours ago
Like him or hate him, Venezuela has been quite literally a fabulous win.
rurp an hour ago
Fabulous win in what ways, and for who? I'm genuinely asking, as I haven't followed the country much. From what I have read the same corrupt repressive regime, the one that ran the country into the ground, is still in place while the democratic opposition that had shown some life in recent years has gone silent.
kipchak an hour ago
watwut an hour ago
panick21_ an hour ago
Yeah, slightly changed market for something that didn't matter that much to begin with. Its was a successful military operation. A fabulous win is WW2, ending the Cold War or things like that.
outside1234 an hour ago
Literally nothing has changed except for the names though?
chollida1 2 hours ago
Most of this debt will be forgiven or given a significant haircut.
The legal term is odious debt and it has a long history of debt taken out by dictators being forgiven once the dictator has been removed.
The IMF will normally make a ruling on this as to if the debt is odious or not but given how a few big hedge funds that normally go after discounted debt have recently dumped a chuck of Venezuela's debt the writing is on the wall as they say.
I'm not a government credit expert but what analysts are saying to expect 60-75% of the debt to be restructured, not forgiven, in terms of a 50% hair cut.
The debts owed to oil companies secured by oil infrastructure is less likely to be written off as Venezuela will need foreign help to rebuild their oil infrastructure form these same companies, giving them a fair bit of leverage here:)
GL26 an hour ago
Guess that's what happens when your entire economy almost only relies on a single economic resource
millipede 2 hours ago
> On top of that comes what is owed to oil companies and suppliers, claims stemming from expropriations under Chávez and the outstanding loans from China and Russia.
It seems like China or Russia would expect to be paid not in dollars, but in Oil Wells and Refineries. Why would they accept restructuring of the debt instead of repo'ing the assets?
dylan604 2 hours ago
If Venezuela used Enron math, then repo'ing the assets could get tricky. Are we sure the same assets haven't been leveraged more than once? Does Russia and China show up with their armies to see who gets it?
stickfigure 2 hours ago
I expect Russia won't be collecting anything.
alephnerd an hour ago
> It seems like China or Russia would expect to be paid not in dollars, but in Oil Wells and Refineries. Why would they accept restructuring of the debt instead of repo'ing the assets?
Because a number of those assets are still owned by other countries that paused FDI due to Trump's Venezuela sanctions in 2018-19.
For example, India was Venezuela's largest oil exporting customer following Maduro's election with it's state-owned (ONGC, Indian Oil, Oil India) and private sector (Reliance) majors being given sweetheart extraction deals that India had to freeze due to sanctions.
Brazilian players like J&F Group also did the same thing with Venezuela's ONG industry as did Spanish players like Reposol.
Now that the Venezuela sanctions regime is over, those assets which were continued to be owned by those countries are being restarted by those countries.
The biggest winners of Maduro's capture was basically Brazil, India, and Spain as their companies were able to restart operations minimizing China's near monopoly in Venezuela after the expanded sanctions regime kicked off in 2018 while being nimbler than American players who essentially have to start from scratch.
nyxtom an hour ago
That's it? That's only like 3 months of OpenAI/Anthropic
alephnerd an hour ago
Venezuela's GDP (ie. it's yearly economic production) is around $111B.
This is a very large debt load and extremely difficult to pay off.
conductr an hour ago
Come to think about it, Venezuela owes me a billion dollars too. I forgot to send the invoice. Silly me.
mlmonkey an hour ago
Such a shame that a country with the world's largest proven oil reserves is so much in debt and poverty.
Lesson for the rest of the world is: you go against the USA, prepare to suffer.
Of course, s/USA/China/ or s/USA/Russia/ above in a few years time.
ErneX an hour ago
We are not in the shithole we are because “we went against the USA”. The US was our biggest business partner. Our problem was we elected a coupster moron that destroyed our economy. It was our own doing.
mlmonkey 33 minutes ago
You skipped the part where the "coupster moron" and his buddies pissed the US off by nationalizing oil industry and kicking the American companies out. That's what I am referring to.
ErneX 25 minutes ago
jauntywundrkind 38 minutes ago
Sounds like we were maybe made for each other (alas alas alas).
ErneX 28 minutes ago
ck2 an hour ago
They should send a 14 sentence MOU to US administration and get $300 Billion
So where is all their money going right now into the middle-east?
Is the President taking a cut?
Investigations in 2027 are going to be bonkers
dist-epoch an hour ago
They should do an Argentina.
Every 10 years or so Argentina defaults on it's debt. The next day banks/hedge funds line up to loan it money again.
The ways of finance are mysterious.
> The country has defaulted on external sovereign debt nine times since independence: in 1827, 1890, 1951, 1956, 1982, 1989, 2001, 2014, and 2020. Three of those defaults occurred since the year 2001.
https://maseconomics.com/argentinas-recurrent-defaults-a-cas...
mmooss 2 hours ago
Who lent them the money? Did the government of Venezuela have good credit? It's the creditor's fault as much as - or in this case, arguably more than - the debtor's.
The same applies to some business and personal debt: Sometimes good loans go bad; life has risk; sometimes it's obvious ahead of time. Either way, both parties take on the risk and both are responsible for the outcome. When the creditor is significantly more sophisticated/capable than the debtor - as an extreme example, a credit card company extending credit to someone addicted to gambling - I think the creditor is much more responsible. Another example is Wall Street banks extending credit blindly to real estate investment, causing the 2008 recession.
In government finance, it's a very well-known, well-used tactic for wealthy countries or banks to extend credit to other countries that are unlikely to pay it off (due to limited revenue or competence), eventually giving the creditor significant control of the debtor country. The West used to do it effectively and probably intentionally; China has been doing it more recently. The debtor is starved for capital and won't turn it down; eventually they can't pay and another country has their finger on a trigger at all times: they can call in the loan and bankrupt the debtor at will.
ErneX 43 minutes ago
I know China gave one loan of 50 billion in exchange of future oil production. It was a terrible deal at the time, because they fixed the price of the barrel to a price way lower than market.
And when the Chinese noticed their money was being basically stolen they stopped giving loans, fortunately.
cs702 2 hours ago
According to the Financial Times, it will be the world’s largest debt restructuring.[a]
Venezuela's economy has been a disaster for many years.[b] Surely I'm not the only one wondering:
Where did all that borrowed money go? If any of it had been spent to buy goods and services inside Venezuela, it would have led to at least some business formation and activity. Instead, there's only been business destruction and constant crisis. It's kind of incredible that the country has nothing to show for all the money it borrowed.
---
[a] https://www.ft.com/content/b7f25ca2-827c-40f9-ab1a-57067d8ec... (paywalled)
JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago
“Investors have previously estimated that Venezuela also owes $30bn-$50bn to oil companies and trade creditors for unpaid invoices and more than $20bn in legal claims awarded to companies after Chávez’s regime expropriated their property.
Venezuela has also been estimated to owe $10bn-$20bn to China in debts that Caracas previously paid from oil exports but is believed to have stopped servicing, about $6bn to Russia, and $4bn to development banks” (FT).
cs702 2 hours ago
The legal claims from expropriation, I get that... but everything else was actually borrowed.
Whether the form was debt issuance or unpaid accounts payable, the rest actually was borrowed.
It's kind of an "impressive accomplishment" in my view.
JumpCrisscross an hour ago
legitster 2 hours ago
Venezuela had one of the largest government sectors compared to their GDP. Their solution to every economic problem was create lots of government busywork jobs funded by oil exports and loans.
Their crude is really only valuable to a handful of countries, the US being the main one. They could really not afford to have worsening relations with the US right as the fracking boom took off.
As their domestic industry shrank, they had to import more and more resources from other countries.
glitchc 2 hours ago
Into the pockets of the leaders. The people will pay for it through a cut of oil profits for the foreseeable future.
ErneX an hour ago
It’s not only the money borrowed, it was also the biggest oil windfall it ever had during the Chavez early years.
Where did it go? They stole it.
hungryhobbit 2 hours ago
Corruption.
cs702 2 hours ago
Obviously, but $240B is a lot of money for a country with only 9M households, so, around $27K/household. It's an "accomplishment" of sorts to blow up in smoke that much money per household, with nothing to show for it. How the heck did they do that?
55555 2 hours ago
ErneX an hour ago
nwah1 2 hours ago
tokai 2 hours ago
brightbeige 2 hours ago
At least your reply wasn’t written by AI
throwitaway222 2 hours ago
[flagged]
ceejayoz 2 hours ago
BurningFrog 2 hours ago
In a dictatorship, the money goes to the dictator and his friends.
micw 2 hours ago
Talking about Venezuela, US or both?
panick21_ an hour ago
undefined 2 hours ago
SilverElfin 2 hours ago
It’ll be hard to know where it goes, but there’s a reason why people like Putin are billionaires. They siphon off funds from the state to themselves. And no one is in a position to stop them or even look into what’s going on.
Venezuela was allegedly planning to invade a resource rich neighbor before the Trump administration’s actions, as part of a long standing territorial dispute, and I think that was partly so Maduro could keep the support of the population but also partly to deal with the financial problems. So their leaders definitely knew these issues were building up.
ErneX 39 minutes ago
To be honest that was a huge bluff. There’s no way the decimated Venezuelan army after so many years of corruption could even threaten to invade anybody. Not downplaying the seriousness of the whole thing but even Venezuelans knew that was a distraction.
mmooss an hour ago
This seems really about handing Venezuela back to Western oil companies, apparently by legitimizing the oil company claims and putting Venezuala in their power as their bankrupt debtors. How does all this help the Venezualan people? How is it a good deal for them? Venezuala likely should default on much of the debt and finance themselves through their own oil. Financial Times: [0]
“Investors have previously estimated that Venezuela also owes $30bn-$50bn to oil companies and trade creditors for unpaid invoices and more than $20bn in legal claims awarded to companies after Chávez’s regime expropriated their property.
Venezuela has also been estimated to owe $10bn-$20bn to China in debts that Caracas previously paid from oil exports but is believed to have stopped servicing, about $6bn to Russia, and $4bn to development banks”
But notice that one of the first acts of the new government was to pass laws handing Venezuala's most valuable asset by far, their oil, to foreign companies. Imagine the US, Russia, Norway, or Saudia Arabia doing that. Even if that wasn't a politically disasterous idea - one with a proven track record worldwide - it's hardly the top need of the Venezualan people. They don't seem to be people served by the new government - the Venezualans aren't the people who put the government in power, for one thing.
Control over countries and their oil, including via debt, an old, well-established strategy, long used by the West. It's been abandoned until Trump has seemingly returned to it - as if the oil companies are hoping to relive their most powerful era.
Notice also that Trump's attacks have been on the leading oil producing countries outside US influence: Venezuala and Iran, and Nigeria. (Yes, the first two are also long-term political enemies - you might consider that the oil, inability of US to control them, and enemy status might not be coincidental.)
[0] https://www.ft.com/content/b7f25ca2-827c-40f9-ab1a-57067d8ec... - quote stolen from another comment
alephnerd an hour ago
> handing Venezuela back to Western oil companies...
Before the 2018 sanctions and after the American expropriation in the 2000s, the biggest foreign players in Venezuela's ONG industry were Spanish (Reposol), Indian (ONGC, Indian Oil, Oil India, Reliance), Chinese (Sinopec, CNPC), and Russian (Rosneft).
The Spanish and Indian players kept operations at a minimum during the sanctions regime, but quickly scaled up after Maduro was captured.