How Many Elementary Particles Are There, Really? (quantamagazine.org)

71 points by rwmj 5 hours ago

Sniffnoy 2 minutes ago

I feel like you ought to be go lower than 17, down to 9, by not counting the 3 generations of fermions as distinct (so you've just got up-type quark, down-type quark, electron-type particle, and neutrino). After all, if they can mix with one another, should they really be considered entirely different particles?

ziofill 14 minutes ago

Physicist here. I don’t buy some of these distinctions, like the chirality. Chirality is an observable, it’s like saying there are two photons because they can come in two polarizations, but polarization is not an inherent property: it depends on how we measure it. So I could describe any photon in the left/right chiral basis just as well as in the vertical/horizontal basis or any two antipodal points in the Poincaré sphere, so which is the “right one”? Neither. Spin on the other hand (which is where polarization comes from) is well-defined for any photon and it’s always 1 (the astute reader will wonder why the projection of spin 1 does not take 3 eigenvalues 1,0,-1 and it’s because photons are massless so the 0 projection never occurs because there is no rest frame for massless particles).

Alulim 34 minutes ago

I'm not a physicist (so take this with a grain of salt) but I have spent a lot of time trying to find an answer to this question. If you interpret the physics before Spontaneous Symmetry Breaking as more fundamental, and you treat the antimatter fields as distinct, then I think you can reasonably claim that there are 30 fundamental fermion fields. Specifically, in each of the 3 generations, you have:

1. The left-handed lepton doublet field, and the antimatter equivalent. 2. The left-handed quark doublet field, and the antimatter equivalent. 3. The right-handed electron singlet field, and the antimatter equivalent. 4. The right-handed up-quark singlet field, and the antimatter equivalent. 5. The right-handed down-quark singlet field, and the antimatter equivalent.

The bosons are more confusing to me, but I think a reasonable person might say that there are 16 fundamental boson fields:

1. The four scalar boson fields. 2. The eight gluon fields. 3. The three W boson fields. 4. The B boson field.

The B boson couples to every fermion (via hypercharge), while gluons only couple to quarks (via color) and W bosons only couple to the doublets (via weak isospin).

mac3n 17 minutes ago

going in the opposite direction, as few as two

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preon

d4ng 2 hours ago

There are also 17 wallpaper groups. That always seemed like a funny number. I know it's a long shot, but is there a relation?

slashdave an hour ago

Funny to who? The decimal system, for example, is a human invention.

d4ng an hour ago

It's a reasonably sized prime number regardless of base.

sva_ 20 minutes ago

BobbyTables2 3 hours ago

Not being a Physicist, I have to wonder if all these particles are somehow manifestations of a simpler thing.

Might there have been a point in time (long ago) where the “wave photon” and the “particle photon” seemed like possibly different things?

jerf 3 hours ago

You don't have to wonder, because they are. They're manifestations of fields.

I think it is a reasonable answer to tell people "if you're looking for the short list of simplest things, the number of types of fields there are is probably what you're looking for".

That doesn't invalidate this question in general, though the number of different answers from people looking at the same thing suggests it may be underspecified.

HarHarVeryFunny 2 hours ago

But of course one can then question why are there exactly N different types of fields, with their specific types of interaction (at least in our universe)? Why should we suppose that this is the most fundamental description of reality, rather than being emergent from something else?

frutiger an hour ago

jerf an hour ago

tsimionescu 2 hours ago

api an hour ago

rwmj 3 hours ago

To me that raises the opposite question, why are there so few fields? (Compared to what I'd imagine, infinite)

[Edit: I suppose I'm imagining waves or frequencies of waves, rather than fields, hence why in my imagination there would be an infinite variety]

Filligree 2 hours ago

TheOtherHobbes 2 hours ago

In QFT every particle type has its own field.

nine_k 2 hours ago

antonvs 2 hours ago

antonvs 2 hours ago

> if you're looking for the short list of simplest things, the number of types of fields there are is probably what you're looking for

Definitely. It's rather strange that the OP article doesn't even mention the word "field". It seems that people in general have a hard time letting go of the idea of particles as fundamental.

A good overview of this is "There are no particles, there are only fields" (https://arxiv.org/abs/1204.4616) by physics prof Art Hobson.

Fields collapse the zoo described in the article significantly, because particles and antiparticles arise from the same field, and similarly, spin, polarization, and helicity are properties of the same field. Taking this into account, the 118 particles number that the article reaches at one point drops to 37 fields.

AnimalMuppet 2 hours ago

Noaidi 3 hours ago

> They're manifestations of fields.

Or wave. Everything is a quantum wave.

https://www.vlatkovedral.com/everything-in-the-universe-is-a...

GroksBarnacles 2 hours ago

andrewflnr 2 hours ago

antonvs 2 hours ago

slashdave an hour ago

> I have to wonder if all these particles are somehow manifestations of a simpler thing

Yes, theorists have been working on a similar idea for decades.

> the “wave photon” and the “particle photon” seemed like possibly different things?

No. Wave vs particle is just a different description of the same thing.

colejohnson66 3 hours ago

That's what the various string theory proponents start from. There's "too many" different subatomic particles, so there surely must be something smaller that they're composed of?

Noaidi 3 hours ago

How long can you break something apart until you cannot any longer? The things we are breaking apart are illusions in a sense. There will always be a smaller particle because that is what we are looking for.

When we understand that everything that we see is a manifestation of a probability wave, then we will understand everything is a wave and end these foolish experiments.

GroksBarnacles 2 hours ago

krapp 3 hours ago

jiug 2 hours ago

Even if we use "wave photon" and "particle photon" alternatively, they are only convenient ways of talking about the behavior of the "photon field". The same way when we say "it is raining" we don't mean there is an "it" that "rains" we should try to avoid giving too much litteral meaning to these descriptions.

That said, I get it is difficult, especially because we are using everyday language to talk about very-much-not-everyday stuff. We all needental hooks to anchor new knowledge and most of our intuition comes from the classical (not-quantum) world around us.

As a physicist, I feel the art is in learning when to use what description, what Sean Carrol calls "poetic naturalism".

jiug 2 hours ago

Even though "particle photon" and "wave photon" are used alternatively, they are just convenient ways of talking about the behavior of the same "photon field". The same way when we say "it is raining" we don't mean that there is a "it" that "rains", we should try avoid taking these descriptions too literally.

That being said, is difficult because we are using language to describe very-much-not-everyday stuff. We all need mental hooks to anchor new knowledge and most of our intuition is based on the classical (not-quantum) world aroud us.

RobotToaster 2 hours ago

antonvs 2 hours ago

> I have to wonder if all these particles are somehow manifestations of a simpler thing.

Someone else already mentioned that yes, they're manifestations of quantum fields. This is well established - the dominant theory of particle physics, the Standard Model, is a theory of quantum fields.

In that context, a particle is simply the smallest excitation of a quantum field that can be detected. Fields can be "excited" (fluctuate) in many different ways, and the OP article is interpreting each one of those as a different type of particle. It's misleading.

EwanG 3 hours ago

As usual, the hard problem is how you define "Elementary" which is why the posters always show 17, and then you get numbers that go as high as 995.5 (and the .5 is an interesting result as well).

rwmj 2 hours ago

Isn't it just a thing that cannot be broken into / explained as a combination of more elementary things? ie. as far as we know an electron is an elementary particle because it can't be split into smaller components nor is there any evidence that it contains something smaller (unlike, say, an atom or a proton).

unholiness 2 hours ago

Stopped reading after "Yet in the mathematical equations that define the Standard Model, the eight gluons are distinct from one another in the same way that the W and Z bosons differ."

W and Z bosons, photons, etc have fixed masses, charges, interaction strengths with other particles. These properties can exactly be listed and looked up in a table of elementary particles with discrete rows.

Gluon color is continuous property in a vector space. Gluons can have any color in that space, with any combination of the 8 basis vectors (and that choice of basis is also completely arbitrary). The color |g1> is no more valid than the color (|g1> + |g2> + |g8> / √3) or any other of infinite combinations.

Calling this "8 gluons" is like saying there's "3 photons" because they can have momentum in 3 dimensions. If you want to argue there's infinite kinds of gluons, go ahead, but there aren't 8.

pdonis an hour ago

> W and Z bosons, photons, etc have fixed masses, charges, interaction strengths with other particles.

But you can form a continuous set of linear combinations of these things, just as you can with gluons. Indeed, what the article calls W and Z bosons (and photons) are just such linear combinations--the ones that appear in the low energy limit after the electroweak phase transition occurs. Before that phase transition, different linear combinations (i.e., a different basis of the electroweak vector space) are the ones that naturally appear. So saying that there are two W, one Z, and one photon is really counting basis vectors in the electroweak vector space, just as saying there are 8 gluons is really counting basis vectors in the gluon sector of the strong interaction vector space.

unholiness an hour ago

In a hypothetical scenario where we were inventing the standard model in the first 10^-11 seconds after the big bang, you're right there would be an analogy there. But in that scenario, our standard model would say there was one electroweak particle, not that there were 8 gluons.

In our own universe, the fact that electroweak symmetry breaks ensures there are 4 electroweak particles and not other combinations. There's no corresponding thing to contain gluons to individual particles, you'd need laws of physics we don't have to add that constraint.

yccs27 an hour ago

The gluon with color (|g1> + |g2> + |g8>) / √3 is just a superposition of the gluons with colors g1, g2 and g8, the same way you can make superpositions of any other particles. You are right that the choice of basis vectors is arbitrary, but that doesn't make it wrong to count the number of dimensions. It also doesn't make it fundamentally different than, say, polarizations of photons or even flavors of quarks. You can have superpositions of photon polarizations or quark flavors.

All of these are continuous properties in an n-dimensional vector space.

slashdave an hour ago

And the different charge W bosons are just the same particle, via time reversal symmetry.

usuckatphysics an hour ago

8 color indices, why not call that 8 particles what is the point of commenting like you are better than the article when you so clearly show you are not in one sentence never speak on physics again please

LearnYouALisp an hour ago

Huh, I didn't even know we had sub-species ID of gluons now

calimoro78 an hour ago

The answer is 42.

warumdarum 3 hours ago

Some powerof two many actual states + a fractal deterministic random generator for particle Explorers?

tlogan 2 hours ago

D

eximius an hour ago

Hmm if a particle is a quantized packet of a field, then if multiple quantizations are possible in a field, then it's possible for more particles than fields?

tlogan an hour ago

I somehow deleted my original comment.

I actually made mistake. There are 16 fields:

* 12 matter fields (6 quarks + 6 leptons)

* 1 gluon field (an 8-component SU(3) field)

* 1 weak field (a 3-component SU(2) field)

* 1 hypercharge field (a 1-component U(1) field)

* 1 Higgs field (SU(2) x U(1))

We have 17 particles is because W+, W-, Z are combination on 2 fields.

I think counting particles is just going to confuse people because they are really not “balls”.

Noaidi 3 hours ago

There are no particles. Everything is a wave.

The Everything-Is-a-Quantum-Wave Interpretation of Quantum Physics

https://www.mdpi.com/2624-960X/5/2/31