Hacker News

> These vessels have evolved intricate adaptations that can maintain the water in liquid form, even under the extreme low pressures

This sentence undersells the phenomenon quite a bit: the “extreme low pressure” is in fact several bars of negative pressure and the challenge of maintaining water in liquid form is avoiding cavitation.

I was exposed to the physics of trees though the entrance exam to École Polytechnique (France's best University) and it's been carved in my mind since then: http://alainrobichon.free.fr/Concours/X_PC_PH1_01.pdf

AFAIK students are still being given this masterpiece for practice even though it's now 25 years old.

I grow marijuana and chillies from time to time. I got good at it. I will say that plants are malleable in untold ways and so I find this article to be unsurprising.

Plants will do what they need to do in the end. I've done stuff like co2 bombing, and increasing nutrients to the point to where I get a whole new ecosystem of insects and an entirely new situation.

It is such fascinating stuff that it's actually the life I want to live. I'm a computer scientist but now I yearn for the botanical sciences.

I highly recommend checking out defoliation strategies and low-stress training methods for anyone interested. Plants are not dumb creatures. The results you can get from them are astonishing and the science of what plants actually are becomes more profound by the day.

I would not even expect there to be a problem; it only seems that way if you naively imagine that trees contain continuous, open pipes from top top bottom.

A bucket brigade works just as well up ten flights of stairs as up one hundred. So does a system of opening and closing valves.

We can pump water from a bucket on one floor of building to a bucket on the next floor easily. Then we can repeat the same thing at the next floor; the pressure from the numerous floors above doesn't factor in because there isn't a connected water column.

This goes against all previous research/measurements for actually tall trees (looks like they only considered up to 80m) and the fact that there are exactly zeros trees in the world taller than 130 meters [1]. Wide capillaries at the base, like stated in the article, don't seem to be related.

[1] https://www.sfgate.com/science/article/REDWOODS-How-tall-can...

Kurzgesagt has two videos on trees addressing this and other questions.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSch_NgZpQs

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pHJIhxZEoxg

The largest tree on record is rejected in part because it's over the theoretical limit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nooksack_Giant

Too bad we cut it down, along with almost every other giant Douglas-fir.

>Giant trees have no trouble pumping water to top branches

Hm, may be because they are not really "pumping" the water?

Folks still sleeping on structured water.

While admittedly contested and only reproduced by a few labs outside Gerald Pollack's at University of Washington, there is a solid case that it could play a role in transporting water and sap to the tops of trees. At least, it's involved in the motion induced in hydrophilic tubes when there is sufficient ambient radiant energy (uv/infrared).

Relevant papers:

"Exclusion-zone water inside and outside of plant xylem vessels." 2024 Scientific Reports. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-62983-3

"Surface-induced flow: a natural microscopic engine using infrared energy as fuel." 202 Science Advances. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aba0941

"Long-range forces extending from polymer-gel surfaces." 2003 Phys. Rev. E. https://link.aps.org/doi/10.1103/PhysRevE.68.031408

Pollack's site: https://www.pollacklab.org/

Some critiques of Pollack's theory:

Schurr, J.M. (2013). Phenomena associated with gel–water interfaces: analyses and alternatives to the long-range ordered water hypothesis. J. Phys. Chem. B, 117(25), 7653–7674. https://doi.org/10.1021/jp302589y Elton, D.C., Spencer, P.D., Riches, J.D. & Williams, E.D. (2020). Exclusion zone phenomena in water — a critical review of experimental findings and theories. Int. J. Mol. Sci., 21(14), 5041. https://doi.org/10.3390/ijms21145041 (open access; the most thorough critical review) Elton, D.C. & Spencer, P.D. (2021). Pathological water science — four examples and what they have in common. In Water in Biomechanical and Related Systems (Biologically-Inspired Systems, vol. 17), pp. 155–170. Springer. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-030-67227-0_8 (preprint: https://arxiv.org/abs/2010.07287)

on the other hand, many giant trees get the water out of the air via fog:

Coalescence of coastal fog accounts for a considerable part of the trees' water needs.[23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequoia_sempervirens#Fog_and_f...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequoia_sempervirens

I don't get why it is believed that trees can't pump water above a certain limit, all it should take is a system of valves, something that plants already have for other purposes. It certainly isn't lumuted by trees literally sucking water up as that would limit them to a height that can be easily exceeded by the majority of trees.

It seems that trees just don't grow that tall anymore. Even common trees such as the spruce seem to be able to reach 100m, they just kind of don't.

One possibility is the depletion of nutrients. But what I think is to blame is the lack of elephants. They constantly ruined young trees and the lucky few that survived then grew huge. Perhaps the redwoods were actually created by the natives, who removed young trees, and kept the old trees standing.

“The root cause is nailed down (not a theory anymore)…” —Claude

Any truth to whether water pumped by tree (branches) is potable?

Another paper for the “Obviously” category. Otherwise the leafs at the top would be brown. But I did a PhD myself and our papers were exactly the same. Noone wants to rock the boat. Professors just want to get to their pension without problems. And people will cite things that are in line with their own stuff. So there you have it. Just proving the obvious time and time and time again.

plants are very brave, both metaphorically and physically.

I’m glad to find the trees are doing well, even the big ones, that managed to grow big... ???

Happy for them.