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From the analysis linked in TFA:

"The automated query can be based on: * Identity information included in the application or in travel documents, such as name, date of birth, national ID number, and/or * the fingerprint of an individual."

Sounds like they could send requests to that computer system just based on publicly available information on a person like name and date of birth, even if the person never applied for a visa or tried to enter the US.

A national ID system (standard in effectively all European countries) is table stakes for state capacity. I find the RealID opposition baffling.

And also according to the DHS is apparently now insufficient to prove citizenship to vote, i.e. goal posts moved.

Not to mention that to get around RealID with flights, you just have to pay $45 and you're good to go. Since we all know that bad actors don't have access to that sort of money...

Edit: sorry, I misunderstood the post.

Not my experience the last time I entered. I travelled with a friend for whom it was his first time visiting the US. He was fingerprinted, I wasn’t (I was fingerprinted a while ago on one of my previous trips.)

No. I haven't had to do it in at least two years and I travel here frequently on an EU passport.

not for US citizens at least, whereas I get fingerprinted entering and exiting as an EU citizen in the EU.

> In the US there have been notorious mistakes of using biometrics to falsely recognize an unknown criminal. Does this happen in the EU too?

This my major concern with biometrics and DNA databases. It makes the cops lazy. "Subjects fingerprints and DNA was found on the crime scene, so he's clearly the murderer". That flips the evidence around, suddenly "I" have to prove I'm innocent as opposed to the law proving I'm guilty.

If you can simply collect all DNA and fingerprints from a crime scene, look it up in a database and compile a list of suspects, it also eliminates the possibility that the real perpetrator didn't leave DNA or fingerprints.

Sure, DNA has its use, like "here's the murder weapon, and it has the suspects DNA and fingerprints on it". It's not a guarantee, but it's a closer match.

As for "does that happen in Europe as well", unfortunately yes. There have been cases where the police have found fingerprints and DNA and announced they had the suspect they were looking for, only for said person to be cleared weeks or months later.

As a general rule, DNA and fingerprints cannot be the sole evidence in EU courts. The law will need find more evidence before they can convict you. Also, no death penalty, and "lifetime" in the EU is usually around 10 years, so not a lot of people are found innocent after 30 years.

I suspect that false imprisonment/recognition cases are lessened with biometrics, not increased. I absolutely believe you can point me to individual cases though.

If you have a recent EU passport (like 6-8 years), biometrics like fingerprints are already in the chip, and you won't need to be fingerprinted upon arrival or departure, at least in theory, I wouldn't be surprised if some bureaucrat decided that the passport data can't be trusted and we'll fingerprint everybody anyway.

I have just returned from the EU last week and I have been fingerprinted twice — once on entry and once on exit.

The US passport holders get fingerprinted on entry only, as I’ve heard.

i just traveled to the EU last week and you're wrong, got fingerprinted on entrance and exit

Not my experience: I’ve been fingerprinted on both the arrival and the departure. There was no automatic gate on the departure, just an officer.

US passport holders only get fingerprinted on the arrival, as I’ve heard.

wrong

It's to validate that the fingerprints of the person arriving are the same as the fingerprints of the person who got the passport.

I would imagine it to match that the biometrics on file with the biometrics presented at the border to catch forgeries?

To reduce friction of traveling to the US obviously.

People without EU citizenship also enter EU.

Recent changes to EES system have been a disaster, and as op has pointed out, people do have to scan their biometrics more than once coming from a non-EU country. In some cases even if you are a EU resident in case the airport has no specific queues.

I just visited Italy. We absolutely passed through biometric scans on arrival and departure from FCO (US passports, vacation so no paper visa).

And then again at DUB outbound (US pre-clearance, so the normal Global Entry kiosk).

All of this was expected. The only thing that surprise me was there was no passport check or any other custom/immigration at Dublin on the inbound leg. We just walked from the arrival gate to the departure gate and that was that.

With the introduction of EES system (whose implementation was completed only a few months ago), the full data of non-EU citizens gets collected the first time we enter the EU and then we have to verify it every subsequent time.

Not much of a hassle at airports due to the availability of self-service kiosks, somewhat of a hassle when crossing with a car, and infuriatingly annoying when using a mass transit option like a bus or a train where everyone has to step outside and wait in line to do that, adding about 20-30 minutes to the border crossing.

As has been discussed elsewhere, this sounds more like you are flagged than SOP.

Can't see where "the major distinction" lies. It's also true that a lot of US citizens have absolutely no intention of ever visiting Europe -- as to hostilities, well the last two World Wars didn't exactly start in the US.

We must close this dinghy gap!

You missed a fourth option: renounce your European citizenship

... or to EU, or to UK, or to anywhere at all. Just stay at home.

Virtue signal received.

The last few trip I've taken through Europe this year have changed to the new fingerprinting system.

Its changed in the last year or so. Officially it started in October 2025, it's been a bit of a disaster in terms of implementation. It's called the Entry/Exit System (EES)

I've had my fingerprints taken every time I've been to the US, although not always all the fingers every time, presumably on subsequent visits if you have passport + right hand matches, they don't bother scanning left hand or thumbs.

I've certainly had the full scan on multiple occasions though.

Yes they have biometric collection stations now.

10 years ago I walked right past the French immigration officer by accident because I didn't know where I was going. He yelled at me to get back in line, quickly stamped my passport and then shooed my along. EU has become a lot more like the US. I'd probably been detained if I had done that in the US. Last year visiting Switzerland they had these machines that auto adjust a camera to your height and there was no way you were going past the barriers by accident so you are getting your photo taken.

Things have changed in the last 10 years. I recalled from 2016, while some countries like Sweden were super strict about entry/departure (lady manually counted number of days on passport) others had been so lax it was comical: France would take one quick glance at you and stamp the passport, Ireland would at least test if you could answer a simple question with the stamp already pre positioned on the passport upon answering said question.

I presume this electronic system finally accounts for all of these differences and provides a minimum standard for exit/entry. Now it being digitized there is no wiggle room on exit/entry. Frankly with how lousy US exit/entry seems for foreigners, I don't mind the EU wanting to maintain strict standards for visitors to their borders as well. I wouldn't even mind them being extra rough on us Americans. Its totally understandable. Preferably take all the US diplomat passports to a back room as well while they are at it.

The EU is very sporadic. I walked straight into Sweden from a flight from Iraq and customs was not even there, and passport control waved everyone through with the most cursory of glances.

do they actually say that they can only do a lookup when checking a visa, or are we giving api access to the US government and saying "Dont do evil" >

There's some level of difference to be fair

Hacking is a concern in both but the bigger issue is potential for abuse of power.

In the case of border checks the target is by necessity someone that isn't a citizen. This means that:

1. We generally afford them less safeguards than citizens so it creates less precedent (both legal and in terms of overton window)

2. The potential for abuse is ultimately less because a traveler on a short term visa is unlikely to still be in the country / unable to leave if a hostile government comes to power and intends to abuse the data

Also fingerprints and a picture are significantly less invasive than pervasive video surveillance in public spaces

Some amount of surveillance leads to a better society. See SG. Flock is needed for current USA. That's why idiots are up against it.

That already happens. Witness all the random "bans" and "pauses" Trump has instituted against various nationalities and groups of people at the border.

Tbf Israel has more concern than travelers' comfort, given everything happening around them AND maybe within them too.

You don't need to visit an embassy for ESTA, for a Visa this in-person interview at the embassy is required.

ESTAs used to be instant for me, but last time I got one (2023) it took 2 days

The US is particularly bad as you need an ESTA to transit. I had a friend nearly caught out by that on a flight from London to Lima which involved changing in Miami. When changing plane from an international to international flight in most countries you get off a plane, maybe go through security, and then get on another plane. In the US this isn't a thing. You have to immigrate into the country for 20 minutes.

I spent around 20 minutes arguing with ChatGPT when I asked the question and we eventually came to this conclusion... It's a visa that's not a visa.

And only one gives you a sticker on your passport

(And funnily enough the Visa lasts for a longer time)

But then some countries have visas on arrival that are less of a hassle than ESTA.

That's about to change, they are about to introduce a change that will require bios of all relatives, all social media accounts, email addresses, etc. Haven't looked at a US visa recently but it seems as invasive.

Depends on the visa.

A-1 and A-2 for example require almost nothing beyond a photograph, and a letter saying you’re travelling on behalf of your government.

So it's a "lightweight" visa.

The information you need to provide as an Iranian after a P1 visa is not remotely comparable to a British citizen after a B1 visa either.

"you" being the operative word. The rest of the information will just be supplied by your government instead of yourself.

I've never had to do this for a visa for countries that required one. It was all online.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-...

It states regarding a visa: "A visa allows a foreign citizen to travel to a U.S. port-of-entry (generally an airport) and request permission to enter the United States. A visa does not guarantee entry into the United States.

The Department of Homeland Security (DHS), U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officials at the port-of-entry have authority to permit or deny admission to the United States. "

> A visa allows you entry

That's incorrect, holding a B1/B2 US visa only allows you to arrive at the port of entry, the actual permission to enter the country is always left to the border officer interviewing you

> A visa allows you entry

Nope

It's the same deal as you mention above

If you don't want the US to have your date of birth, photo, fingerprints, etc then don't go to the US. It's that easy.

You share your thoughts, ideas, likes and dislikes on American sites like this one. Possibly also have a YouTube account you've actively used daily for years. You don't seem to have a problem with that, why? I would argue the totality of your activity on American sites would be much more revealing about you than your fingerprints and home address.

Your home address is required for a US visa and for many other countries visas around the world. This is not a recent thing.

Instead, the EU is going to collect the US nationals' fingerprints at the EU points of entry.

There are many reasons not to want authoritarian governments tracking your every movement other than you having stolen or forged a passport.

The U.S. accessing my personal data causes immediate harm and completely unacceptable risk.

That's a failure of imagination on your part. I don't agree that governments should have this kind of information about us in order to cross borders.

You really put a lot of trust in countries that are rules by oligarchs and where a far-right is rising to power...

Isn't that why there's an org like Interpol with 192 countries "members" or "represented" I'm not sure which. Everyone owns it together kinda thing

What do you think is stopping the US? It could be privacy but I don't think that would hold up in the public court as the US is way worse than EU when it comes to privacy regulations... what else? Control?

And we're not talking about "border security" in its entirety, just the screening/identifying part.

> have no say over what they are doing with your data

It seems like you already have no say over what they're doing with your data, and they're selling it to the US.

Yes there is a difference: For the average no name individual, the local authorities are a much bigger threat.

The data in the hands of officials in your jurisdiction is far more relevant than the other way around and there is little control about the data for domestic usage.

>There is a clear difference between a local system that has access to your data, and a foreign one. You have no way to vote the foreign entity out of power, and have no say over what they are doing with your data

On the flip side foreign entities mostly won't ruin your life over petty deviance or find a way to predate upon you like local ones will because the foreign institution cannot project violence into your jurisdiction cheaply and without opposition the way the local one can. If I could choose who got access to the exclusion of the other it would be the foreign power every single time.

I know this wasn't what you were getting at but it's worth looking at the other side of the coin too seeing as voting barely grants us any power over how local entities use our data.

in the EU you have no way to vote for things to change either

Exactly, and of course the EU can (and should) also reciprocate and apply the same restrictions to US travellers. There kind of visa-free agreements existed in the first place because they interest both countries involved.

Biden kept a lot of Trump's policies inact, he just wasn't loud about it.

I wasn't trying to highlight who was president or not