How to survive boiling water (taxa.substack.com)

399 points by cainxinth 4 days ago

Aachen 3 hours ago

> about 7 out of 10 people in the U.S. were prescribed antibiotics in 2024 according to <CDC data>.

This blew my mind so I double checked the source. It links to https://www.cdc.gov/antibiotic-use/hcp/data-research/antibio... which contains some numbers but not the claim. It links to various reports, the latest one (2024 at the time of writing) https://www.cdc.gov/antibiotic-use/media/pdfs/2024-Annual-Re... says at the top of page 2 that the prescription rate is 679 and 775 doses per 1000 people in 2024, depending on the gender. That matches the 7-in-10 number so I'm guessing this is where the statistic comes from

Doesn't that reflect how many prescriptions there were rather than what number of people got it prescribed? See also page 3 where Mississippi has 1167 doses per 1000 persons. Either the number of people is wrong (if the prescription given to a tourist and counted towards this statistic, the tourist should also be counted as person, but the CDC says they take the population count from a census) or it's about doses and not about what part of the population got an antibiotic in the last year. In both of these cases, you can't conclude 116.7% of people got antibiotics prescribed. The claim in the article based on that CDC data sounds to me like saying 520% of the people drink alcohol when, in reality, 10% drinks a bottle a week and the rest nil

I'm probably misunderstanding the CDC report but I'm not sure how I should be able to tell that

lithocarpus 3 hours ago

There's no way 7 in 10 people were prescribed antibiotics in 2024. This looks like a simple and egregious misinterpretation of the data, which seem to be all too common. I could believe there were 700 prescriptions given in the US per 1000 people in the US population. But many of those would be repeats to the same smaller number of people. I still would say there's way too much antiobiotic use - every time doctors have wanted to give me antiobiotics it wasn't necessary.

horsawlarway 2 hours ago

This would be my read.

Hell - my children just this year would have counted for 10+ doses (my daughter 6 all by herself for a series of severe ear infections).

NDlurker 41 minutes ago

I had 2 or 3 rounds of antibiotics and steroids in 2025 for a stubborn ear infection.

jacobolus an hour ago

Yes, it's "number of prescriptions" (but not "number of people prescribed" or "number of doses"). One person could be prescribed an antibiotic (or multiple) several times a year.

I'm amazed that there are 1216 antibiotic prescriptions per 1000 people per year in West Virginia though (2.5x the rate of California or Colorado, which itself frankly seems pretty high). Are large parts of the South just awash with bacterial infections, are people being prescribed antibiotics for viral illnesses, or are they just taking antibiotics prophylactically?

doublepg23 an hour ago

> antibiotics prophylactically

Ticks are pretty bad nearby in WPA, I've taken antibiotics prophylactically for them.

NDlurker 35 minutes ago

smallerize an hour ago

Wait is that individual doses? Like one prescription would commonly be for 20-30 doses.

WoodenChair 33 minutes ago

Yes I stopped reading there after checking the source myself and seeing the same discrepancy. I had also noticed earlier in the article she wrote, "This finding was great news for Napoleon. The French were losing money, and perhaps more alarmingly, their reputation, exporting wine to the British – the wine would “spontaneously” go bad during shipping."

Pasteur was born after Napoleon was exiled. Maybe she is referring to Napoleon III, but then it's misleading to just write "Napoleon." Two factual mistakes in the first couple pages and I can't trust the rest. Especially on a topic I know little about so I can't be discerning regarding.

carschno 8 hours ago

People interested in this: if you are ever in Amsterdam, I recommend to visit the Micropia museum: https://www.artis.nl/en/artis-micropia

Among many stunning things, they have a shelf full of foods and drinks (behind glasses) with age labels, ranging from days to years. It is fascinating to see how they evolve over time.

jzelinskie 4 hours ago

Love this museum! It's child and adult friendly. They also have the best souvenir: a collab with a local brewery for wild ales (sour beer)!

cambriacommons 6 hours ago

thanks for this

thih9 8 hours ago

In case anyone else is curious about the current status:

> The Milk was declared missing on August 20th, 2022.

> The dorm’s extended mailing list of over 300 current students, alumni, and other assorted Random-adjacent humans was contacted, twice.

> In the end, no Milk.

https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/guest-post-the-random-...

incanus77 5 hours ago

Did they ever put its photo on the side of a milk carton?

vitorfblima 3 hours ago

Humans should wear shirts with a missing milk photo on it.

drabbiticus 5 hours ago

Just imagine a "Missing Milk" [1] on the side of a milk carton campaign. I'd be so confused haha.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing-children_milk_carton

tippa123 8 hours ago

A great read from the author. It reminded me of my previous life as a bioprocess engineer, where I led investigations into biologically contaminated batches in biotech. It was fun stuff and I still remember some of the best advice I received from an Executive Vice President to never underestimate a microbe.

On this subject, I once led an investigation in which Bacillus cereus somehow survived in situ media sterilisation for 30 minutes and >121.1°C, despite there being no cold spots. At the end we realised it was the bioburden load of a media component and water temperature used during compounding.

fnands 5 hours ago

> it was the bioburden load of a media component and water temperature used during compounding.

In English, please ;-)

weinzierl 5 hours ago

I put it in AI and even that couldn't fix the sentence sufficiently for me to understand it completely.

"So, in ordinary language:"

"One dirty raw ingredient introduced far more spores than expected, and the way it was mixed into the water made the sterilization cycle less effective against them. The autoclave itself was probably not broken."

"The exact relationship to water temperature remains somewhat ambiguous because the HN commenter did not provide the detailed investigation findings."

tippa123 4 hours ago

dotancohen 4 hours ago

weberer 7 hours ago

Spore forming bacterium are notoriously resistant to most ways of killing them. There's even a species that can resist radiation amounts that are 1000x the dose needed to kill a human.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinococcus_radiodurans

cobbzilla 5 hours ago

I want this mutation. You have little nano-crawlers going up and down your DNA strands fixing problems. It’s like ECC RAM for the essence of YOU. And you’re basically immune to cancer.

dotancohen 4 hours ago

That is not how spores work.

cobbzilla 3 hours ago

Andrex 4 hours ago

neonstatic 4 hours ago

> It’s like ECC RAM for the essence of YOU

Buddha would like a word with you

tippa123 7 hours ago

> Clues for future search of extremophile microbial life on Mars

That paragraph is pretty extraordinary with what is being claimed.

Crazy to think that anything could survive 25 kGy.

k1ko 6 hours ago

25 kgy, not great, not terrible.

tippa123 6 hours ago

platybubsy 4 hours ago

donkeyboy 9 hours ago

That was a fun read. The author has a really good storytelling style.

I dont understand why the cold brew test had fewer bacteria than the steeped teas. If the bacteria are shielded in spores, shouldnt it be expected that they have the same amount of bacteria?

brabel 9 hours ago

I think it’s just that the bacteria in the hotter container woke up to a warmer, nicer environment. Warm temperatures are much better for bacterial growth. While it was too hot they didn’t seem to care at all since their spores protect them completely from damage.

nchmy 8 hours ago

Agreed - I really enjoyed the writing. I'd have normally skimmed for the conclusion but ended up reading it all. Shame that that's so rare these days.

Otterly99 9 hours ago

They could have some coating that make them stick to the content of the tea bag, basically affecting their solubility.

advisedwang 4 hours ago

Perhaps just random variation? They only did one plate, after all.

cratermoon 4 days ago

This almost throwaway line from the article struck me as an example of what we can do with technology, if we choose to put our billions of dollars towards it: "I downloaded the BC30 genome".

roughly 5 hours ago

It's a shame it became such a weird political football, because the story of the mRNA COVID vaccine is absolutely in the "we are as gods" pantheon - the virus was sequenced, and 3 days later two separate labs had sequences for the vaccine. Phase 1 trials began within 3 months. To go from "weird novel pathogen" to "enough engineered vaccine candidate to start Phase 1 trials" is some legitimate sci-fi shit.

onraglanroad 3 hours ago

What felt Sci-Fi to me was when I saw this Stack Exchange question about what the A's at the end of the COVID virus sequence meant: https://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/90607/does-the-g...

Edit: I found the wrong one; I think the one I remember was https://bioinformatics.stackexchange.com/questions/11227/why...

Schiendelman 4 hours ago

Thankfully the political football is simmering down - I think we have mRNA flu vaccines in progress now, and attempts to stop that failed.

neonstatic 4 hours ago

creaktive 10 hours ago

What’s even more shocking to me: one can “3D-print” downloaded genome, too! What a time to be alive.

Terr_ 3 hours ago

You might enjoy: "Reverse Engineering the source code of the BioNTech/Pfizer SARS-CoV-2 Vaccine" (2020)

Being much smaller than a whole organism genome, the base-pairs are literally published in a WHO Word-document. :p

https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source...

peterabbitcook 10 hours ago

So under most brewing conditions a nonzero amount of this microbe survive, but that count is 3 orders of magnitude lower what might be termed a “therapeutic dose?”

What even is a good experimental design for probiotic tea? Brew -> agitate in hydrochloric acid & digestive enzymes for X minutes -> mix with billions of existing gut microbes (that may kill this microbe or out-compete it for resources) and incubate at body temperature -> count the number of new colonies of this particular microbe?

zbentley 9 hours ago

The author does mention that a synthetic digestive system was used in another experiment, so you may be correct!

cainxinth 8 hours ago

Learning that MIT has an ancient bottle of rotting milk reminded me of my 9th grade science teacher. He had been teaching for decades and had a tremendously messy little office attached to his classroom. The pièce de résistance of his menagerie of scientific oddities was a large fish tank filled with many strata of mottled goos. I asked what it was and he said it used to be an ordinary aquarium, filled with fish and water, and he just left it alone for 20 years.

klvino 6 hours ago

Playing the long-game version of oil production

NopIdoN 5 hours ago

I bet one of them tastes fantastic

odyssey7 9 hours ago

Another organism that survives pasteurization is paratuberculosis, in milk. It is commonly found in commercial dairy herds. In my opinion, this is alarming.

Many consider it to be a candidate for the cause of Crohn’s disease. Johne’s disease, which occurs in a subset of cattle infected by paratuberculosis, bears many similarities to Crohn’s disease.

When Crohn’s disease was first described, it was believed to be an intestinal tuberculosis, though tests seemed to counter this idea; to this day, it remains difficult to test humans for paratuberculosis infections.

[0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S07400...

[1] https://www.journalofdairyscience.org/article/S0022-0302(19)...

singpolyma3 9 hours ago

More good reasons to avoid the expensive poison water called milk

PcChip 6 hours ago

can you explain why you feel this way, instead of making radical claims without saying why?

GJim 7 hours ago

As if millions of mammals suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced.

advisedwang 4 hours ago

pazimzadeh 4 hours ago

spores are the reasons that labs use autoclaves instead of boiling to sterilize things. autoclaves are pressurized so can reach much higher temperatures

Aachen 4 hours ago

I didn't know pressure is used in sterilisation. Trying to look up why that helps, the Wikipedia article on autoclaves does not explain why but says it uses 1 bar, which would be equivalent to ambient pressure (atmosphere at sea level is ~1.01 bar). Does it maybe mean an additional bar, so twice atmospheric pressure?

Wikipedia also says it uses steam, not just hot air, and again doesn't say anything as to why

Do you know why pressure and steam help?

Edit: I may have found it while looking at what I thought was an unrelated part of the rabbit hole. Gravity displacement sounds like antigravity technology but it's apparently the cheapest autoclave type and means "displace using gravity" (by letting gravity do its thing; not adding in a vacuum pump). What it's displacing is air. This matters because

> Steam at 134 °C can achieve a desired level of sterility in three minutes, while achieving the same level of sterility in hot air requires two hours at 160 °C. (—Wikipedia)

I'm now assuming that pressure must help push the air out, and steam is used for having better heat conductivity. Neither is quite spelled out but that's my best guess currently

Eisenstein 3 hours ago

I'm pretty sure it is because when there is high pressure the boiling point of water is higher.

triceratops 7 hours ago

Fascinating post. Why did the author steep the tea at home?

"It was at this point I realized I needed a sterile-ish way to transport the steeped tea and tea bags from my house to the lab."

Was steeping the tea at home somehow relevant to the experiment?

gtowey 4 hours ago

If I had to guess, it would be because that's exactly the environment and process that consumers will use, so it would capture variables such as "what if the probiotic was out-competed by a bacteria living on your mug?"

And then I would assume the sterile transfer was to preserve this state of the tea as-made without changing it on the way to the lab.

triceratops 2 hours ago

So bring mugs to the lab? Make the tea in a kitchen at the lab?

shepherdjerred 3 hours ago

I loved this! The article was written in such an approachable way for someone less familiar with microbiology

scythe 5 hours ago

>This is one of the most polarizing choices one can make as a biomedical research scientist. The alternative to the hockey stick is to use glass beads that you autoclave then sprinkle on the plate and roll around. People are very passionate about their chosen method and will attempt to convert you.

It turns out vim vs emacs is a universal phenomenon.

invictati 3 hours ago

Hockey stick? Glass beads? What happened to the good old inoculating loop?

evolarjun an hour ago

Loops are good for streaking. It's hard to get even coverage with a loop, so loops would make it hard to get accurate CFU/ml counts. Loops are more likely to get you single colonies even if you're inoculating from a high density culture, so loops are usually used when picking single colonies is the goal. Sterilized cheap flat toothpicks work pretty well for streaking too.

OnACoffeeBreak 10 hours ago

Cool story with an interesting ending (to me at least).

Just a tiny nit... Should "Brewed as directed for 4 minutes in boiling water." be "Brewed as directed for 4 minutes in boiled water." Was the tea sitting in water that was boiling or placed in water that just boiled? The later is how I brew my teas.

decimalenough 9 hours ago

Left in previously boiled water for 4 min. We can deduce this from the second sample, which simulates forgetting your tea bag in the mug for 15 min.

TremendousJudge 8 hours ago

I think GP meant in the tea instructions

gblargg 9 hours ago

Isn't boiled water what goes up into the air?

nwatson 5 hours ago

The boiled water (assuming even heating throughout) is what reaches boiling temperature, 100°C, which is the entire pot. Additional energy applied to the pot/water after that point turns at some rate the already-at-100°C-boiled-water into water vapor/gas/steam. If you stop heating before all the already-at-100°C-boiled-water disappear, you have left what is or will have been "boiled water".

kevinwang 6 hours ago

Very, very well written and enjoyable to read!

inigyou 10 hours ago

I boiled water today and survived.

creaktive 10 hours ago

Interesting… did you boil the water with you inside of it?

nrclark 6 hours ago

Cooked.

Aachen 3 hours ago

Non-native speaker here. I hadn't noticed there are two words for what seems like the same thing. Is there a difference between a water boiler and a water cooker?

nrclark 3 hours ago

underlipton 2 hours ago

> While unhappy microbiomes can be unhappy in their own way, we do not have a consensus on what a “healthy” gut microbiome looks like, either. In collaboration with a continent-wide consortium in Africa, our lab helped catalogue the species found in healthy adult women across the continent. We found over 1,000 new species relative to what had been previously described in studies focused on Western countries.

>Companies trying to introduce targeted combinations of microbes into the gut are thus forever shooting at a moving target.

IIRC, the only semi-reliable way to "adjust" one's microbiome is to find someone who is healthy (and preferably your target body composition/energy levels/psychological profile; and, even more preferably - and possibly paradoxically - who is as close to "you", genetically and physiologically, as possible), harvest and freeze their feces, and take a daily, months-long course of the resulting poop pills, hoping that their gut microbes colonize your own digestive system.

nekusar 6 hours ago

This is kinda disgusting but I think applies to this discussion.

Blue cheese. Its living mold. I think it tastes good.

BUT.. when I eat it, I notice a few days later that my excrement smells more like blue cheese as well. My guess is that I'm inoculating my own digestive tract with blue cheese molds.

Another mishap happened with my cat too. I gave her some beef from our supper. Some of the gorgonzola blue cheese sauce got on it, but I thought I cut and kept the blue cheese off. Nope, I didnt, not enough. She had diarrhea for the next 2 days cause it wrecked with her digestive tract.

Maybe this will help a microbiologist.

lostlogin 2 hours ago

Kopi Luwak is coffee that’s been digested by a cat, and it’s very valuable.

You might be onto something, have you considered trying the cat blue cheese?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopi_luwak

NopIdoN 5 hours ago

thanks now I'm imagining you farting spore clouds