9th Circuit sides with states in Kalshi gambling fight (azmirror.com)
95 points by hungryhobbit 5 hours ago
DannyBee 3 hours ago
Lawyer here - As i explained last time we had a variant of this thread (see comment history if you are interested), this is a very complicated area that people try to make very simple.
It doesn't have to be complicated, mind you, but right now the way the law is written is basically:
1. Transmitting sports betting info between states is a federal crime unless it's legal in both states (18 U.S.C. § 1084(a))
2. The CEA regulations ban contracts that are illegal under state law (17 CFR 40.11)
3. Other forms of gambling/betting/contracts that are not sports are generally a-ok.
4. This is not a case of first impression, it's just getting relitigated because Kalshi doesn't want to follow the actual law. This has actually been pretty settled law for a long time, with new flareups maybe once a decade. Kalshi is just hoping to be treated like Uber was.
The third circuit's decision is pretty clearly "out there" in terms of existing caselaw.
However, this will end up at SCOTUS, and everything until then just doesn't matter. That will be a coin flip even though it shouldn't be
runako an hour ago
> Kalshi is just hoping to be treated like Uber was.
This is not a bad strategy for a company in our asymmetric regulatory environment. Fortunes were made in crypto on exactly this one-way bet.
Go on breaking the law until you get a favorable judge/Congress. Nobody is going to jail (we don't really do that anymore), you might pay a fine. Every once in a while you'll have change the app a little to sort of comply with a judicial order. There's practically no downside to this strategy.
highfrequency 42 minutes ago
> Go on breaking the law until you get a favorable judge/Congress. Nobody is going to jail (we don't really do that anymore), you might pay a fine.
Binance, FTX, BitMex, Silk Road founders all went to jail - it’s a huge coin flip.
aetch 29 minutes ago
grim_io 36 minutes ago
kingkawn 34 minutes ago
vkou 42 minutes ago
What kind of society do you get when the positive EV play is to always break the law first, litigate later?
brendoelfrendo 27 minutes ago
0xbadcafebee 2 hours ago
> because Kalshi doesn't want to follow the actual law
Correction: because the federal government doesn't want Kalshi to follow the actual law. CFTC ordered Kalshi to continue operating in NY when NY tried to crack down on it. Donald Trump Jr. is a paid advisor for Kalshi. The US Government's conservative leaders are ignoring states' rights in order to personally profit, using Kalshi as a tool.
> this will end up at SCOTUS, and everything until then just doesn't matter
Unless Congress passes a law so SCOTUS doesn't have to. We can't keep pretending it's normal for SCOTUS to decide everything about our society. If Congress won't do its job, why do we have them?
jfengel 2 hours ago
We have them because the Founders thought it was a good idea.
Then they thought it was a good idea to have two houses with different criteria, giving two chances to quash legislation. Plus the veto. Plus the Supreme Court (whose job they left almost completely undefined, so they made up a job description).
So we have them because we can't get rid of them. But they are practically useless. They can usually manage the bare minimum of reauthorizing the thing they said last year. Then they can rename a few post offices, have some grandstanding hearings, and then go home to campaign for reelection.
dmix an hour ago
Alpha3031 an hour ago
DannyBee 37 minutes ago
Thankfully, the CFTC can't actually order Kalshi to continue operating in NY despite being in violation of NY law. They have no authority to override any judge's order/etc, and at least so far, have not pretended they do.
As for me, i've never pretended it's either normal or desired for the courts to make policy, whether congress is dysfunctional or not. Among other things. My comment was basically pointing out that the current supreme court seems perfectly willing to throw out decades of settled law on an ideological whim, and actually, for that matter, happily interpret very clear congressional statutes in very odd ways.
So your comment there is mistargeted, at least as applied to me.
fooey 33 minutes ago
absolutely nothing in going to happen in the US congress until 2029
we're essentially one year of three into one of the least effective lame duck legislative bodies we'll ever see
mullingitover 4 hours ago
> “Congress did not take a wrecking ball to all sports gambling regulations built up over decades by federal, state, and tribal governments when it amended the (Commodity Exchange Act),” Judge Ryan Nelson wrote in the unanimous decision.
Incredible that it's taken this long to arrive at the obvious.
undefined 3 hours ago
echelon 3 hours ago
Gambling is a negative externality that needs to be taxed.
Gambling takes advantage of the poor, under-educated, and addictive personalities and puts them into financial distress. This places burden on families, the state, and local municipalities. It creates strain on the workforce and deflects legitimate economic activity that would otherwise strengthen the economy.
We're a free society. I'm fine with gambling from a personal liberty perspective, but the companies that facilitate and profit need to pay 40-50% of their gross revenue to the government. That's comparable to tobacco.
Companies also need to be restricted in how they are able to advertise their vices. Never to children, and never targeted to at-risk personality types.
They also need to be tightly regulated and kept from using dark patterns and addictive gotcha mechanics to cause even greater harm to those most at risk.
pibaker 20 minutes ago
I don't think you can equate Kalshi style "prediction market" with gambling in Vegas. The worst thing that can happen in Vegas is you the gambler go bankrupt. In the meantime we already have reports of war intelligence in Ukraine being distorted so someone who betted on frontline movements can pocket some cash. Losing a war because some rich degenerate is trying to bet his way towards a second Ferrari is less unlikely than you imagined.
dghlsakjg 13 minutes ago
jareklupinski 3 hours ago
> companies need to pay 40-50% of their gross revenue to the government. That's comparable to tobacco.
taxing a vice is worth it on paper, but the second-order effects (nonstop alcohol ads, pervasive gambling app dark patterns) aren't worth it imo
combobyte 3 hours ago
tofuahdude 40 minutes ago
dakolli 40 minutes ago
karlgkk 3 hours ago
Or, at least treat it like a public health issue. Used to be that if you wanted to gamble, you had to physically to a dedicated gambling zone.
consensus1 3 hours ago
Cyclone_ 2 hours ago
You can always just ban things. The families of those who go into financial ruin from gambling would prefer this.
zzgo 2 hours ago
> gotcha mechanics
gacha mechanics
lern_too_spel 19 minutes ago
Why should it be comparable to tobacco? It should be derived from first principles. Figure out the external cost to society and tax it enough to pay for those costs after money distribution overheads. If there is no tax structure where the revenues exceed the costs, ban it.
The difficulty with taxing prediction markets is that encouraging gambling on some events incentivizes gamblers to try to influence those events in a way contrary to how people would want to influence them in the absence of gambling, which typically means gamblers are incentivized to influence events in a way that will increase societal harms. For some events, resolving one way or the other is inconsequential, but this is not true for many of the events I see people gambling on in prediction markets.
charcircuit an hour ago
The government never needs to tax things. If you think it is negative to society then it can be banned so that money can be spent elsewhere.
EA-3167 4 hours ago
The law is slow by design, it's deliberative, it's multi-staged, it's escalatory and obsessed with consulting multiple jurists. That can be extremely frustrating until you start looking into how the country would look if individual judges were able to fast-track the whole system. Naturally we'd celebrate the positive outcomes, but the bad ruling would immediately go into effect rather than facing injunction, review, etc.
These laws have profound effects and it takes people time to learn about what they pertain to, especially new technology or new ways of using it. It's good to have periods of feedback between the public, the courts, the legislature and the executive branch. The same things that slow down what we most want to happen quickly also slow down the things we desperately want to avoid.
"If only the law moved as quickly as an individual" is great until you get a guy like Trump in power.
meowkit an hour ago
Was great when the world ran on horses and whale blubber.
The legal system tells itself this noble story of measured action without realizing it actually became the bad guy many decades ago.
My brief little opinion here is half informed from dating a lawyer for a few years.
pennomi 3 hours ago
The law being slow is exactly why a guy like Trump in power is dealing so much damage. Nearly everything he’s done has been illegal, but the decisions often take so long that they have no effect.
crossroadsguy 14 minutes ago
(Not American)
What does 9th circuit or some circuit court mean?
It some name of a specific court, just not the place name?
Or is it special kind of court and “9” is some sort of level? Importance or hierarchy related? Escalation level? (Assuming your SC eventually is also at the top like in India)
hungryhobbit 5 hours ago
The appeals court found sports betting isn’t shielded by the federal law used to block Kris Mayes’ prosecution.
dcrazy 4 hours ago
Hope dang comes in with a headline rewrite
Detrytus 4 hours ago
and why would he do that? It is an actual title of the linked article.
lokar 4 hours ago
I wonder what this means for cases under loss recovery acts in states that have them.
8note 3 hours ago
as an argument for sports betting as a market, i remember when the wrong team won the world series, and hadnt setup their correct merch and so on for online sales, and it was a disaster trying to get all the right stuff together to minimize fraud and abuse.
if an online sales provider could hedge against the risk of that win, the gamble would help pay for all the chaos as a result
steveBK123 an hour ago
Lots of bespoke insurance already exists.
Lloyds will insure your rocket cargo or even provide terrorist strikes.
Doesn’t mean we need people wagering at kalshi on “number of terrorism fatalities in London before end of 2025”.
Domenic_S 35 minutes ago
> or even provide terrorist strikes.
I'm sorry, Lloyd's will _what_??
undefined 2 hours ago
BobbyTables2 2 hours ago
Looks like Kalshi lost its bet…
johnnyApplePRNG 2 hours ago
regulated entities mad at unregulated entities, nothing to see here, yawn
anigbrowl 2 hours ago
Actually exactly the reverse
morkalork 3 hours ago
Rem when mafia bookies running sports betting was a subplot on The Soprano's? It wasn't that long ago.
SoftTalker 2 hours ago
Well they are still doing it.
adzm an hour ago
People seem to be blissfully unaware that illegal and underground gambling is still going very strong.
vkou 37 minutes ago
fenestella 2 hours ago
[flagged]
aabdi 3 hours ago
[dead]
delichon 3 hours ago
> As an example, the court explained that whether the Super Bowl happens is an “occurrence,” but who wins it is not.
This level of parsing looks like judicial legislation to me. Isn't it one occurrence if the Rams win and another if the Packers win? Better that they declare the law void for vagueness and give the legislature another shot at it. Guessing what the words mean, when it is not at all clear to professionals let alone to the average citizen does not give proper notification of what the law is to the people subject to it.
mandevil 3 hours ago
Everyone agreed that this (what the court ruled) was the plain meaning of the law up until Kalshi just decided to go for it. They basically did an Uber on the law, completely ignoring how it had long been interpreted and demanding someone stop them. And only once Kalshi wanted to make money on sports gambling did there start to be parsing like this, to try to argue that sports gambling was legal on a CFTC-regulated exchange. If Kalshi had gotten the law thrown out for vagueness then basically there was a road map for making any law that got in the way of a company making money thrown out for vagueness.
The key is that up until a few years ago basically the universal consensus was that sports gambling was not possible on a CFTC regulated exchange, then all of a sudden Kalshi did it and now they are trying to pay enough lawyers to get them to justify it. This ruling is not judicial legislation, this is demanding that companies actually follow the law.
delichon 3 hours ago
Declaring the law void for vagueness would not favor Kalshi. It would undercut the federal preemption that Kalshi is advocating for.
jmalicki 2 hours ago
jmalicki 3 hours ago
From the opinion:
"Because the definitions of event and occurrence do not resolve the issue before us, we must also consider the statutory context"
They talk about this and the exact definitions for basically the entire opinion. It's not just "meh, I felt like it". They are dealing with how these words have been defined in prior statutes.