A Necessary History of the Oddest Letter: W (lithub.com)
69 points by NaOH 4 hours ago
vhantz an hour ago
English is at best my 3rd language. I have always found the huge discrepancy between pronunciation and spelling really nonsensical (keep in mind that I even speak French). But this article really helps see all that in a new light. Nothing is a-historical, not even phonetics. Newfound respect for the English language.
Sharlin 3 hours ago
The history of W in Finnish is interesting (for some values of "interesting"). Mikael Agricola [1], a Lutheran clergyman, essentially created literary Finnish from scratch in the 1500s (before that, Finnish had existed solely as a spoken, vernacular language, with official business conducted in Swedish (or German), and until the reformation, the language of the Church had of course been Latin).
Agricola had to create an alphabet for Finnish, and naturally borrowed heavily from Swedish and, to a lesser extent, German. His orthography was not particularly self-consistent, and for example the /u/ and /v/ phonemes might be written as either "u", "v", or "w" in Agricola's works. For example, the word uusi (/u:si/; "new") was written by him as "wsi", indeed using "w" as a literal "double-u". The /w/ sound did not exist in spoken Finnish.
Over time, Finnish became the almost entirely phonetic language that it is now, with letters matching phonemes essentially one-to-one. /u/ was regularized as "u" and /v/ as "v". As /w/ still doesn't exist, the letter "w" is very rarely used, mainly in some surnames as an alternative spelling of "v"; phonebooks used to collate "v" and "w" as the same letter. In loanwords "w" becomes "v" (e.g. "whiskey" -> viski). Finns with a thick accent (see "Rally English" [2]) tend to pronounce the foreign /w/ as /v/ when speaking English, similar to Germans.
Today, imitation of Agricola's orthography is the Finnish version of "ye olde English", used for humorous or intensifying effect. For example, the word vanha "old" might be spelled "wanha" in the name of an antiques shop. "Wanha" also used to be a standard "old news" reply on IRC, especially to links that had already been pasted by someone (and this became so annoying on some channels that it became a kick-worthy offense).
jltsiren an hour ago
Finnish W is inherently tied to Swedish W. Historically, V and W were the same letter, and they could be used interchangeably. W was generally preferred in Fraktur and V in Antiqua. In the 19th century, the orthography changed to use V everywhere, except in some proper names. This happened a bit earlier in Swedish than in Finnish. And, recently, V and W became separate letters. In 2006 in Swedish and (arguably) in 2022 in Finnish.
Sharlin 37 minutes ago
Yes, thanks for the addition! I though about mentioning the link to Swedish W but wasn’t fully sure about the details.
zarzavat 3 hours ago
Would be remiss to not mention W's biopic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg2j7mZ9-2Y
olexsmir 3 hours ago
just come here to link this video...
blauditore 2 hours ago
I first read the title as "oldest letter", and kept waiting for an explanation or twist in the article, getting increasingly confused. I just felt like sharing this, thanks for reading my comment.
AnodicElegy 4 hours ago
The most irritating way in which W is odd is that it requires three syllables to name, while all the other English letters are monosyllabic. This leads to many unfortunate situations where it takes substantially longer to say the acronym of a title than to say the title itself. Take for example, the World Wildlife Fund, which contains four syllables (or maybe five, depending how you pronounce "wild") and whose acronym contains seven. Given how many acronyms contain the word "World" in particular, this is clearly a massive inefficiency in the way we go about our lives. I've started a campaign to rename it something reasonable like "woo" or "woe", but neither Reuters nor the AP seem particularly interested.
anon_cow1111 3 hours ago
Stupid, but related amusing nostalgia:
By default. Unreal Tournament 2003/4 used to have in-game text chat that would use the "Microsoft Sam" voice synthesizer to read player messages aloud to everyone in the room... MS Sam took so long to pronounce the letter "W /DoubleYou" that you could just go into a server and drop a 512 character "W-bomb" and leave. Everyone in the room would have to listen to several minutes of dubbayou's assuming they never turned off the voice feature.
(I miss those days of genuinely annoying but still apolitical random trolling)
lynndotpy 2 hours ago
There is precedent among English speakers for "dub" or "dubya".
George W. Bush is something referred to as "dubya", for the "W" part. And modern slang "W" or "dubs" as shorthand for "win".
"Dubya" fits in the ABC song just as well as double-you, while "dubs" can fit as "dubs and X, Y and Z".
You might have better luck with NPR, they assure me that they read every email.
yongjik 3 hours ago
The name for "Y" starts with a "w" sound, so why not make it symmetric: let's call "Y" why and "W" yay.
fdcjjrvdcg 2 hours ago
Ok I hate this and I love this. Yay indeed!
nkrisc 3 hours ago
Or, of course, WWW (world-wide web) where each word of the acronym is itself a single syllable. This means the acronym is 6 syllables longer if you were speaking it.
bluebarbet 2 hours ago
Indeed. This has to rank as one of the worst branding mistakes in history. All TBL had to do was call the subdomain "web" but instead he went for the infuriatingly fussy and tongue-tying "www".
b112 an hour ago
pavlov 3 hours ago
It’s commonly called “dub” when brevity is called for, as in “dub dub dub” = www.
Or is this just a tech industry idiom that I’ve been taking for granted…
roryirvine 3 hours ago
Though it does make you sound like a boy scout...
Wuh works better, imho, though it does tend to degrade into "wuh'uh'uh" when said quickly.
The BBC tried very hard in 1994/5 to persuade people to pronounce "http://www." as "hit web" - thankfully, that failed to gain any traction whatsoever.
fdcjjrvdcg 2 hours ago
ButlerianJihad 2 hours ago
We proposed “dub-three” in accord with a guy who was fighting the Clipper Chip
jfengel 3 hours ago
In German it's called "vay". That's brief, and gets a few million people on your side.
anamexis 3 hours ago
Counterpoint: Ypsilon.
k__ 3 hours ago
cwnyth an hour ago
Should be "wee", and rhymes with B, C, D, G, P, T, V, and (in some dialects) Z.
ortusdux 3 hours ago
It's also the only letter that is not used in its own pronunciation. It really breaks the cadence of alphabet books!
cwnyth an hour ago
Technically, one of the sounds of W is heard at the end of its name, and is seen more clearly in its homophone "yew" (rhymes with ew, shrew, mew, chew, few, Drew, etc.).
Sharlin 3 hours ago
Not to mention "www", which when pronounced is actually three times longer than its expansion.
sheept 2 hours ago
For a native speaker in casual speech, it'll only be at most a bit slower than its expansion because English is stress-timed
layer8 2 hours ago
You could shorten it to “sextuple u”.
b112 an hour ago
dyzone 2 hours ago
W is "double u"
chrisweekly 2 hours ago
Yet its written shape is a double-V.
Razengan 2 hours ago
And that's why it's my favorite letter :)
ButlerianJihad 2 hours ago
The erstwhile World Wide Wrestling Federation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWF_trademark_dispute
andsoitis 3 hours ago
> I've started a campaign to rename it something reasonable like "woo" or "woe", but neither Reuters nor the AP seem particularly interested.
I support your campaign. Other candidates: wa, weh, wu
MrBuddyCasino 3 hours ago
In German its „weh“. But then V is „phau“, so its not as easy to confuse as in English.
tgv 3 hours ago
andsoitis 3 hours ago
BoorishBears 3 hours ago
Why not simple, W: making a mouth shape as-if to say "What", then sharply exhale a puff of air instead
tndibona an hour ago
On another note - Indians often switch the w’s and v’s. I don’t know why. If you’re Indian - try pronouncing victory, whisky, and wonderful.
zarzavat 7 minutes ago
Hindi uses the sound /ʋ/ which is a sound with elements of both v and w. This means that to many Indians, v and w are allophonic: they are heard as the same sound.
An example of allophony in English is the aspirated /pʰ/ in pin and the unaspirated /p/ in spin, which to a speaker of Hindi and many other languages would be considered two distinct sounds.
frantathefranta an hour ago
Czech is my mother tongue and I have regular issues with this too (have been mainly English speaking for the last 10 years). Czech does not have a /w/ sound and it confuses me the other way as well, like you said with "victory".
neuroelectron 4 hours ago
(U ω U)