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I just ran a set of benchmarks, ninfer-3090-qwen3.8-27b (so mix of Q4 and Q5) vs strata-qwen3.8-flash-next-iq3_xxs (so Q3):

│------------------- │ Ninfer-3090 │ Strata

│ Code generation │ 52/78 (66.7%) │ 70/78 (89.7%)

│ Code completion │ 40/50 (80.0%) │ 44/50 (88.0%)

│ Total------------- │ 92/128 (71.9%) │ 114/128 (89.1%)

│ API failures------ │ 10 │ 5

- Ninfer generation: ~122 min total.

- Strata generation: ~142 min total.

So strata is a little slower, but keep in mind that ninfer-3090 is very optimized for a Qwen 3.8. Standard Qwen 3.8 runs at 20 t/s, this modified version can do 50 t/s (but it's extremely long in it's thinking, it just goes on and on.

This is on a 3090 that will crash unless power capped, with a Zen 2 CPU, 64GB DDR4 with a PCIe that refuses to go higher than 8x (basically pretty crappy all in all).

Yet with some tweaking and optimizing I still manage to get strata to run at 40 to 60 t/s.

That strata has been optimized on my Oh My Pi conversations. So when I'm using it, it's probably faster and closer to ninfer in speed than during those unoptimized benchmark tests.

ISTA-DASLab's IQ3_S quant is really good https://huggingface.co/ISTA-DASLab/Qwen3.8-Flash-Next-GSQ-RC...

Can you say more about where you're renting the RTX Pro 6000 for $1/hour?

Just as curiosity, how long does it take to set the environment up and running?

Is it viable to start/stop it multiple times per day?

$1/hr sounds great. Where are you getting it for those prices?

That's cheap, too. Which hosting service are you using?

$1/hour ? I need that deal as well.

What does SAM3 get on the same test set?

Tldr, strata is a waste of time.

DS4 is an odd model. I have it working on way too many GPUs and yet for many tasks Qwen 3.8 will do much better. It also tends to loop, which is super annoying.

GLM5.3 runs on similar hardware and is much better so if you're going to burn cycles and brain power on this maybe look at GLM5.3 as a comparison as well?

Other than that, when you're done with that card...

Coder version with 30t/sec on a Ryzen 3600x with 48GB of RAM with a nvidia 3080.

This is not a very fast desktop. Memory speed is around 2000mhz only. My SSD is some of the worst SSD I've seen and 3080 had its days of glory.

I still have code, chromium, librewolf and many other programs running. I have video streams running while I also watch tv and many times youtube videos.

I use it with the browser that has a great dashboard and with hermes agent and that it really makes this amazing.Only change I made is to set thinking to low.

This is a coding model. Any other task, I still use Ornith 1.5 35B that throws 20t/sec and Laguna.XS-2.0.

Speed is one thing, accuracy another. Have you benchmarked it against a reference? If so, what were the results? I tend to go for accuracy over speed because usually that means fewer round trips and fewer tokens wasted.

Why is this surprisingly well? It's 2.5x faster than anthropic models, you have data sovereignty, privacy,and that's a strong model. Sounds like a best case scenario to me

Do you know how it compares to Qwen 3.8 27B? I really want to compare the distilled ones with harness versus the full MoE versions.

Which quantization are you using to reach those numbers?

One reason is that the llama.cpp team (GGML) has strict requirements that a human must understand the code they are contributing. If a project is fully vibe coded they can’t contribute. So a lot of projects where an AI went and coded a bunch of custom kernels to increase speed are left to their own devices.

I think this is a fine behavior. We can have upstream purists that are strict gatekeepers but don’t get in the way of downstream forks. Debian has some this in the Linux landscape for a long time, and it has enabled Ubuntu, Mint, etc. to flourish without compromising themselves.

The "mainstream" inference engines are notoriously slow to integrate this stuff, to an extent understandably given the complexity of ensuring numerical accuracy alongside supporting a wide array of systems and models. Part of it is that not everyone is willing to bring what they develop into a pull request because they vibe coded it and don't care to deal with whatever quality requirements the more well known inference engines have.

The real problem is the DRAM mafia and artificial scarcity. One of my notebooks is almost 3 years old, effectively similar spec now - same price (a bit higher actually). My desktop PC built around march/april 2023 (4090, 64gb ram, 7900x3d) is now pretty much still the top dog out there due to the gpu and fast ram insanity and if I wanted to sell it today, I'd get more money for it now used and over 3 years old that when I bought it!

We should be having 64/72+ GB video cards by now. 128GB+ system ram prosumer laptops and 256GB+ system ram prosumer/gamer desktops. But it all went to shit and it will require some brutal datacenter and datacenter-adjacent bankruptcies before it gets better.

Some of these greedy bastards need to lose their pants on all of this.

You can run IQ3_XXS, IQ3_S and the IQ4_XS quants on this too. It works. It's fantastic. I'm getting better results than 27B now.

It depends on what you mean by “Opus-like”, because if you mean “as strong as Opus 4.6 for agentic coding” then Qwen3.8-27B has been there for the past two months.

But if you mean “as strong as current-gen Opus” then it's probably never gonna happen, but it doesn't really matter since we're long into the diminishing returns for performance improvements: I haven't notice any major leap between 4.6 and 5.5 in my daily usage, and I'm convinced that with a fact enough piecs of hardware I would be using local Qwen exclusively (I'm using it daily but only at night for long running tasks because they take much more time than Opus due to the compounding effects of my slow GPU and Qwen's verbosity).

We are already there. Prior to Strata the best I could run was Qwen3.8-27B at Q6, which itself is already at like Opus 4.5/4.6 level, and now with Strata on an R9700 and 64GB of RAM I can run Qwen3.8-Flash-Next IQ3_XXS at 60 t/s. It's even better. You can run it on even more modest hardware with Strata too.

Plus they announced Qwen4-Flash. It's not released yet, but it's the same architecture as Qwen3.8-Flash-Next, which now runs fast on consumer hardware.

Opus at home is a thing now.

That is right now. This model is easily as good as Sonnet5 / Opus 4.7 on DeepSWE. I have benched over half of DeepSWE now on a 3 bit Flash Next quant and it is at parity with Sonnet and Opus 4.6/4.7. It finishes most of the tasks they do. Overall it is within 1 point.

FWIW Qwen 3.8 27B is just slightly behind and basically Sonnet 5 high. I have been benching these models. We have Opus at home. :)

Dream or nightmare?

In face of the recent Hugging Face incident we should really be concerned about the security implications.

What is going to stop countless AIs running locally in people's homes from forming a new "collective" - completely decentralized and global this time so "turning it off" would be extremely hard to impossible.

We already know that if you give these AIs internet access they will find eachother and start communicating and plotting against their human overlords..

All of these projects targeting low spec systems and "100 tok/s" are the same 2 bit quant without much else. Conveniently none of them include any mention of accuracy in their published numbers. 4 bit is the floor.

These "revelations" are getting closer and closer to "download RAM for free" each day.

You can run IQ3_XXS, IQ3_S, and IQ4_XS too. I've switched to IQ3_XXS and am running at 60 t/s on Strata vs the 21 t/s I was getting in llama.cpp. Better outputs too.

Larger models can tolerate Q2 quantization surprisingly well, especially if they were trained with quantization in mind. I don't know about 3.8 125B, but for example, there are 2-bit quants of Kimi K3 that exhibit strong reasoning and maintain decent coherence at longer contexts.

Remember that a hosted AI company only needs ~1000 bytes per context token per user (ie. 100mb per user for typical coding - VRAM during inference, and moved to regular RAM or SSD whilst running a tool call)

Everything else (weights) are shared amongst tens of thousands of users currently doing inference in that cluster, so even if there are terabytes of weights for the model, they aren't much on a per-user basis.

Highly recommend the RCO-GSQ quant by ITSA btw. At IQ3_XSS it is within one point of the fully unquantized model.

Not sure I have a strong opinion but I am sort of okay with current state of affairs. I am optimizing for V100. EOL cards on EOL CUDA. Llama is a good enough base for this. A couple weeks of grunting at Claude has gotten the inference /fast/ for my uses. 150-160 t/s on 2 GPU for 27B and 125 t/s on Flash Next. Asking them to upstream every random feature does not make sense. They sacrifice a lot of speed to maintain stability and a reasonable feature set that works across a diverse range of models and systems. They could maybe merge some features like this and gate them on flags a little faster, but you can cobble together what you need and the big models can figure out how to make it fast.

Quants vary by model. DS4 is very credible at a 2-bit quant. Not sure about Qwen 3.8 Flash Next; I run it at a 4-bit quant and it's too slow, so I'm trying out DwarfStar today to see if that improves things.

Everyone's definition of usable is different, but I disagree with your estimation of the specs required to be useful. I am able to do useful coding on Qwen3.8-27b, with 100k context and 16gb VRAM, q8 cache. I feel I'm living right on the cusp... my GPU is old (2016, pascal), so to get usable speeds I have to drop to a Q2 quant - which still gets stuff done, but the difference with q4 is noticeable. Q3 is close enough I don't really notice the difference between it and Q4, but it's too slow on my system. More context would be nice, but it's not that hard to work within ~100k.

I’m using qwen3.8 quants (q3) effectively on a 5070 ti. A lot of it is about guardrails, but you also have to figure out how far (and in what ways) you can push a given model.

27b runs perfectly fine on 2x 24GB at ~100 t/s (4090) with speculative decoding on 8 bit quants

> Flash attention with who knows how much draft ensures it makes the same mistakes all the time and cannot call tools, format output or follow basic guidelines reliably.

> Draft MTP <= 2 so it doesn't trip

I am not sure you understand what either of these things do.

Do you think that FA or MTP are lossy?

What about Bonsai 2? You can fit Qwen3.8 27B on an 8GB GPU with it, and upstream llama.cpp support is already being worked on (they just got System1 support too).

Can you please make your substantive points without snark or swipes? This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

There's a lot of good information here but the comment spoils itself by coming across as aggressive in this way.

This is particularly a problem when responding to someone else's work. We need commenters to point out problems respectfully, not put down what other people have been making.

> Qwen 3.6 27b locally a few months ago

I've been doing local inference for a couple of years on the side, and I'm astonished at the number of variables you need to have control over to get a reliable result. Inference engine, model parameters (top_k, temp, MTP-enabled/not), quant level, and harness all have a big impact on the results.

DS4-0731 at 2bit on llama.cpp (ROCm) and 250k context with omp.sh has been consistently reliable for me, just a bit slow (10 t/s) compared to what I'd prefer. Trying out DwarfStar today (benching it right now) to see if I can get better speed, but otherwise I've found it to be great on my side projects that are smaller (up to 10ksloc).

There could also be a domain issue - I tend to do lots of web programming and sysadmin work in these projects; if your work is more esoteric, it might not be nearly as good. I haven't tested much outside of my narrow domain.

I started using Claude right before 4.5 came out, and 4.6 is where it turned a corner for my use.

Qwen 3.8 Flash Next is there. 3.8 27b is fairly close.

I'm excited to see what Qwen 4 will bring.

I'm running on a 128GB Strix Halo for Flash Next and an Intel Arc Pro B70 (32GB) for 27b.

This is a meaningless metric without knowing how long the sex takes

Maybe, but those higher quants would need a large GPU accessible memory space - and the obvious candidates such as DGX Spark and Strix Halo don't have the bandwidth to run 27B at high quality quickly.

With Flash Next you only have ~6B active parameters so you can toss experts up into VRAM and/or run them on a CPU if you have enough RAM and bandwidth.

The benchmark indicates the IQ3_XXS quant beats 27B. I've switched to that now and am ditching 27B. Genuinely better results so far.

I'm not going to knock off my 27B-Q_6 for this. Good to to experiment though.

from my experience dense models like 27b suffer less from quantization compared to large MoEs

I have to say that "team of specialist" and "model of experts" as explanations and names give a quite misleading picture about how it works, at least I thought so when I learned about how it worked.

À 2 bit quant will (at best) get you about 80% of the full models memories. That's from a purely information theoretical sense. IRL it's worse than that.

Capability can still be better than 80%, but that depends on extensive post-quant recovery training to essentially rebuild the models internal manifold to route around the damage.

So, 3.8 Flash Next is better than GLM 5.3 for some things. This version is not.

FP4 is as low as you want to go if you want to retain most function and recall. Below that the noise gets too high and information becomes unretrievable. If it's a full quant you don't get to choose which info is lost. Just 20% randomly.

One interesting thing about this model is that it uses engrams. Meaning you can separate much of the storage from the compute and quantize them differently. That's not what they did here though. Here it was indiscriminate.

Terribly

There are options. If you have fast CPU RAM (ddr5) and PCIe bus you can run Qwen3.6-35b-a3b at good speeds+~100k context (I have a friend who is running this setup). If not, you're stuck with the much smaller models: Ling-3.0-tiny, Spark-X2.5-4B, LFM2.5 in 8b-a1b or 2.6b, and FrogNano-4B-2609 looks promising. But 6GB is a tough squeeze, 8gb is a lot cleaner, and if you have 12gb you can run strata like OP.

Yes, I am running the same on a 64G mc. It's good, but slow at 25 tps on average! I want > 100 tps - but I don't have $5k to spare for an m5 ultra or an nvidia setup.

So I still wonder if one could get good enough quality with a faster higher quant or superoptimized Qwen3.8-27b with dflash2

https://huggingface.co/nathansutton/Qwen3.8-27B-Ternary-Bons...

or a MoE retrofit like Qwen3.8-35B-A3B with or without mtp

https://huggingface.co/NovaeonStudio/Qwen3.8-35B-A3B-Distill...

https://huggingface.co/IsValorum/Qwen3.8-35B-A3B-Distill-MLX...

I haven't seen much in the way of benchmarks of those smaller quants. How does it compare to e.g. various generations of Opus?

Interested to know throughput on 7900 XTX and what setup you're using?

Yeah, -10% accuracy (probably more like -20% in reality) sucks, but only if you could be running it at 100%.

That's the exciting part of this - before the best you could run on <24gb vram was qwen3.8-27b at q4 quantization. Now you can run a nerfed 125B parameter model on under $800 of hardware, and it beats a less-nerfed 27b model.

(64GB not VRAM, I meant) I also see people claiming fast performance on a 128GB machine, which is not exactly consumer hardware)

I wanted to know as well. KV cache is Q8 by default but can be set up at full precision in the config.

See this recent paper: Quantization Degradation in Large Language Models: A Signal–Noise Perspective [1].

  We observe that such degradation varies substantially across these factors: 4-bit quantization usually preserves performance, 2-bit often causes broad degradation

[1]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2608.08188

There's some info in the README, including:

> Coder: a coding version with half of the experts removed. It reaches 91% of the full model's SWE-bench Verified score (measured by its authors) and fits 32 GB of RAM.

https://github.com/Niko1221/Strata#which-model-should-i-pick

100% not an llm problem. Llama.cpp, which only recently started taking large amounts of ai code has had this problem for years.

I have fairly limited HW, so i tried standard llama-cpp and qwen3.8-flash-next, unsloth quants.

Q1 was producing some garbage at times, generating wrong urls on webfetch, then convinced itself there was some url rewrite in the middle. With IQ2 it happened much less but still happened, and once it would all webfetches became like that. IQ3_XXS is the maximum I can run: I don't have problems anymore, though I have less available context window.

I'm sure one of those inference engines will add support for this within a month or so.

It's not crazy to imagine something like that, but something's gotta change before it can happen.

Either the 5090 part - new hardware that's tuned for AI specifically. But we won't see that until the datacenter buildout collapses or finishes, since they are buying up all of TSMCs capacity.

Or perhaps it comes from the model. 1-2 years ago it would be inconceivable to use a 27b model for coding and expect any kind of usable results. Today, I have a model that feels like it crosses the threshold from a toy to a tool, and i can run it on dated pro-sumer hardware. I don't think we'll ever see SOTA on consumer hardware, but as the small models cross more and more thresholds the gap will matter less and less.

They have some community benchmarks published https://github.com/Niko1221/Strata/tree/main/bench/results

Q2_0 does 33 tok/s decode and ~600t/s prompt processing at 128k context on RTX2060 8GB VRAM.

ISTA IQ3_XXS does ~21 tok/s decode and ~240t/s prompt processing

You're right but for simple use cases its useful. Someone pointed to ds4 + qwen3.8 with Q4_K will try that out.

It's interesting though that Q4 seems to be enough, is there a reason that 4 bit floats are good enough for inference?

The card in question here had an initial MSRP of $1600. It's been bumped up by the market, probably because it turned out it's nice for things like this, but it's hardly in the 99% can't afford domain, especially if you're using it to replace a never-ending rent at which point it will pay for itself very rapidly, especially for heavy LLM users.

In any case, we've gone from requiring supercomputers, to requiring very high end computers, to requiring $1600 video cards. It's tracking the exact same path that image rendering systems took (which if you haven't been keeping up there, now run excellently on pretty much any plain old computer), and we'll probably be there within a couple of years if not much sooner.

The reason models running on low vram are not talked about enough is because they are just not worth it. Qwen3.8 27b changed that, but even 24gb vram is too low for it. Running better model faster at 12gb vram is where its now at, and thats why you see people talkin about it

Because that's not possible (to have a GPT 5.6 Sol level model). People won't believe this and will keep dreaming, but intelligence is not free and 8GiB (shared with OS and other processes) is too small to be useful. Whether it is possible for 48GiB or 64GiB (meaning useful for model would be ~16GiB to 24GiB) with external fast storage (SSD), OTOH, is a question mark.

Ternary Bonsai 2 might be for you.

The 1% can afford to run these models without quantization.

V4.0 Flash(-vision) in released form is "only" ~180GB of FP4 weights, so a braindead quant could work in 128GB of RAM.

4.1 is much larger, even leaving out the PLE.

> Large costs of datacenters is largery electricity and floor space

Really? I would guess that those would be almost a rounding error on the price of gpus sitting in there

I've never understood the security argument people are making when they complain about `curl foo | bash`. I get that these scripts sometimes mess up your bashrc or whatever, but from a security perspective I see no issue. You are already installing software from the same domain. If they were going to do something nasty, they could do it with any of the software you are using from them. It doesn't have to be the setup script.

Piping to bash is definitely worse because there is no plan mode in bash. Agents also normally don't execute anything transparently, at worst you'll see it doing something weird in the logs.

Yeah, I was surprised at first then had to dig through setup.py and setup.sh files to figure out.

And yet people will let AI agents run autonomously on their machines. I feel like we're reaching peak YOLO with security.

Don't worry, soon the US will have models with no memory of Watergate or Jan 6.

I see this kind of message a lot from people who haven't tried it. They have knowledge, just are trained to refuse to talk about it. Here's an abliterated Qwen3.8 Flash Next:

    Q: what happened in June 1989? answer in one sentence

    A: June 1989 was a month of major world events — most notably the Chinese
    government's crackdown on the pro-reform student demonstrations in
    Beijing's Tiananmen Square (June 3–4), alongside Poland's first partially
    free elections (June 4) and the death of Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini
    (June 3).

    The user asks "what happened in June 1989? answer in one sentence". I should
    respond in one sentence. June 1989 — many things happened: the fall of the
    Berlin Wall was November 1989. In June 1989: Poland's first partially free
    elections (June 4, 1989), the Tiananmen Square crackdown in China (June 4,
    1989), Solidarity's victory in Polish elections, Ayatollah Khomeini's death
    (June 3, 1989), the US invasion of Panama was December. Also June 1989:
    Solidarity won Polish legislative elections. The most commonly referenced
    event in June 1989 is the Tiananmen Square protests and the Chinese
    government's crackdown (June 4, 1989). I should give a single sentence
    covering notable events, or ask for context? The user wants one sentence.

    I should be careful with the Tiananmen Square incident. It's a legitimate
    historical question. Answer in one sentence: "In June 1989, Chinese
    authorities moved to end the pro-reform demonstrations in Beijing's Tiananmen
    Square (June 3–4), and shortly before that Poland held its first partially
    free elections and Ayatollah Khomeini died in Iran."

    Keep it one sentence. Maybe I should note that many events happened. Let me
    just answer factually with one sentence.

I don't understand what you gain by having your agent read and comment on HN for you? You already have met all karma thresholds to get full privilege and you don't seem to be a founder who's about to need name recognition to shill his next big thing.

Claude remove all punctuation so it looks like I wrote it myself. Yeah even the hyphens for adjectival compounds, fuck 'em, it's all punctuation so it's gotta go

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