I would like the value of my home to rise, while my property taxes fall (conversableeconomist.com)
172 points by colinprince 8 hours ago
Johnny555 5 hours ago
In the last three years, a number of states have substantially reformed their property tax systems, providing huge tax benefits to owner-occupied homes and shifting the burden of paying for services like schools and police to commercial property owners (including rental apartment buildings)
That sounds like shifting the property tax burden from homeowners to renters - homeowners are generally wealthier than renters, so it's placing more of the property tax burden on those less able to afford it.
tomrod 4 hours ago
The second order effect will be that rental properties are driven from places where this applies.
That has some not-fun generational aspects.
(1) If schools have lower taxes, their ability to attract good educators for children is reduced. That in turn leads to lower home values since the school quality factor is reduced.
(2) If munis are unable to collect a sufficient tax base, they must reduce services. There will be hemming and hawing about things like cutting the pensions promised decades ago to attract competent service workers, but those are harder to reduce rather than not fixing the fire trucks, the water pipes, and other hidden taxes citizens pay for by reduced services. So your property values will also be reduced in the long term. Small towns are prime examples of this happening, when towns fail.
Trying to build a community out of one socioeconomic class works about as well as trying to redline. It leads to a less vibrant community, less adaptable community, and people are poorer in life and in their finances for it.
nine_k 35 minutes ago
Imagine a town with a number of wealthy homeowners, most of them old enough that their kids have grown up. Their municipality is already flush with cash. They already only need few schools for their kids and grandkids. They just want to pressure the less wealthy undesirables away, and use tax (dis)incentives to do that.
peterfirefly 3 hours ago
> If schools have lower taxes, their ability to attract good educators for children is reduced.
"Good schools" are mostly about avoiding bad kids and bad parents. Expensive homes (without Section 8 or equivalent in the neighbourhood) is a feature, as it keeps most of them away. It's not a good way of doing it -- it excludes lots of perfectly good kids and parents and it is really expensive. It's just the best way available to most people in the West.
II2II 2 hours ago
mancerayder 2 hours ago
wonnage 2 hours ago
majormajor an hour ago
>The second order effect will be that rental properties are driven from places where this applies.
This is likely very intentional in some of these places.
Growing up in suburban TX decades ago, people FREAKED out at talk of potential apartment building development nearby. The duplexes a mile away were 'bad enough.'
nine_k 44 minutes ago
bee_rider 3 hours ago
Are pensions still an effective way to attract workers? I feel like there’ve been enough cases where workers get screwed out of them, that this isn’t much of an incentive. Similar to offering engineers equity in a startup.
Anything past the paycheck is a gamble.
tomrod 3 hours ago
dv_dt 3 hours ago
nradov 3 hours ago
That really depends on the state. Some states have different public school district funding mechanisms that don't depend as much on local property tax collections.
Fire trucks are far more expensive to acquire and maintain than necessary due to monopolistic actions by manufacturers, plus local governments buying fancier apparatus than they really need. There's a lot of room to trim those particular expenses.
https://www.iaff.org/news/fire-apparatus-crisis-sparks-inves...
gopher_space 3 hours ago
tomrod 3 hours ago
8note an hour ago
theres also (3) those single family home neighborhoods require much more government maintained infrastructure for water and roads
isityettime 4 hours ago
I think that's true but in some cases it's also about making home ownership, in the sense of having a home you can't lose short of a destructive disaster, even possible. In a lot of cities property taxes are enough to get in the way of secure housing for, e.g., disabled people. It seems reasonable to want owning the house you live in to be a possibility for planning to eventually live on a fixed or low income.
Someone I know is trying to plan such a thing right now. She has a decent paying job and a degenerative, disability-inflicting illness. She'd like to see the possibility of a secure future in the city where she's lived for the past 10 years, but property taxes and HOA fees alone in her city can be multiple thousands of dollars per month in neighborhoods that from the outside you wouldn't think seem particularly new or posh or luxurious. It seems that if she's forced into early retirement by disability, she'll have no choice but to relocate. So instead she feels trapped in a job she hates because she got it before she became disabled because she's reasonably afraid that employment discrimination, which is terrible at her job that nominally espouses inclusive values, will be even worse most other places. And while she's already disabled, her disability will only continue to get more profound for the rest of her life. And property taxes for sole and lived-in-by-the-owner homes is one of the reason that owning a condo or apartment is so much more expensive than renting one for her.
tkfu 4 hours ago
> property taxes and HOA fees alone
I feel like HOA fees have to be doing most of the damage there. AFAIK the highest property taxes in the US still top out around 2%, so for a "multiple thousands per month" property tax bill it has to be a house worth more than $1.2 million. I'm not sure what the line is for what level of housing expense is reasonable for society to subsidize housing security for, but I'm pretty sure $1.2 million is well past it.
Melatonic 3 hours ago
majormajor an hour ago
>I think that's true but in some cases it's also about making home ownership, in the sense of having a home you can't lose short of a destructive disaster, even possible.
You can also do this with combinations of renter protections + owner-occupier protections.
Currently the latter (whether the recent trend of red states lower property taxes, or Prop 13 in CA) is much more broadly-popular in the US than the former.
Property owners generally show pretty little empathy for anyone else wanting that security.
I go the other way: nobody should be forced out of their home because other people who have more money than them decide to increase the paper-value of their home. Something has to give between "I have a lot of money, I want this place" and "I was already here, I want to stay" and I think incumbency and stability is a better tiebreaker than "money wins."
sagarm an hour ago
eks391 2 hours ago
I'm not sure where your friend lives, but my county (perhaps state level, but county for sure) exempts property tax for those with a permanent disability. I read the requirements and it was really reasonable to prove eligobility.
I understand that this doesn't fully solve the issue in that your friend, if to take advantage of this has to move, but it might be worth seeing if there are similar options around where she lives.
hirako2000 15 minutes ago
engineer_22 4 hours ago
> In a lot of cities property taxes are enough to get in the way of secure housing for, e.g., disabled people.
Nah, the market is supply constrained, if taxes go down the price of the real estate just goes up to fill the gap. People make purchase decisions based on income & total expenses, not on anything else, "can I afford this house?". The price stops rising when the answer switches from "yes" to "no". If your friend can't afford a house right now they don't have enough buying power to compete in the market with other house buyers. Reducing taxes won't give them any advantage in the market that other buyers don't get.
ToucanLoucan 4 hours ago
> I think that's true but in some cases it's also about making home ownership, in the sense of having a home you can't lose short of a destructive disaster, even possible. In a lot of cities property taxes are enough to get in the way of secure housing for, e.g., disabled people. It seems reasonable to want owning the house you live in to be a possibility for planning to eventually live on a fixed or low income.
It seems to be equally straightforward an answer to just not expect homes to function as an investment.
I do not now nor have I ever understood why people expect homes to rise in value. If you live in an area for 20 years, and you enjoy that area, and it serves you well, and educates your kids, and the crime is low, and all that good stuff: why are you then owed money? Why is that a fair expectation? Like I could see it if you made the house bigger, or otherwise improved it? Maybe you put in a new shed, or a nice brick backyard area with a kitchen, sure. House being worth more makes complete sense. But if you just buy a house, and live in it, and maintain it over the years, and then go to sell it: why is it reasonable for you to expect money back out of that?
You've already received what you paid for: a place to live.
Like I just don't see how people go like "My house needs to sell for more than I bought it for years from now" and then complain about the housing market being out of control and houses being expensive. Of course they are. Each time a house changes hands by this logic, it must necessarily be worth more than it was before. So every subsequent buyer of that home is effectively required to tithe to the previous owner for... some fucking reason, that nobody has ever adequately explained to me.
majormajor an hour ago
anon84873628 3 hours ago
sillywabbit 2 hours ago
bee_rider 3 hours ago
massysett 4 hours ago
vigilantpuma 4 hours ago
chasd00 2 hours ago
bluecalm 2 hours ago
>>It seems reasonable to want owning the house you live in to be a possibility for planning to eventually live on a fixed or low income.
One idea here is deferral - if it's your primary residence the taxes are deferred until the property is sold to someone else. This way you won't get evicted but the locality/state can get the payment at some point. This is better than just charging a tax on sale as many countries do because it doesn't discourage transactions.
Geezus_42 an hour ago
austin-cheney 2 hours ago
Not exactly.
The little town I live in is growing about 22,000 people per year. That's 64-67 people per day or about 16 new households populated with new residents every single day. The rental population is growing dramatically faster than the owner population.
That growth trend has very little to do with wealth and is almost exclusively a factor of availability. Most single family households in this growth area are rental properties, because the most urgent buyers are rental corporations who buy many of these houses the earliest moment they hit the market. Sometimes they are buying the houses before they hit the market by working directly with the home builders. Home renters tend to pay more to access the property than home owners even before taxes are considered.
So, its not just about houses versus apartments.
Also, the school systems and local municipalities attempt to sell their multi-billion bond proposals by taxing future residents at the benefit of current residents. That also disproportionately hurts renters compared to owners. The moment I see a bond proposal that will be paid for almost exclusively by residents who aren't living here yet I vote for it... because why not. We need a lot of shit to accommodate this growth and somebody has to pay for it. We need new high schools every couple of years. We need new roads. We need more plumbing, sewage, and electricity before the data centers eat it all up. Somebody has to pay for all this.
derf_ 37 minutes ago
> That sounds like shifting the property tax burden from homeowners to renters...
This is all obviously very specific to the locality where you live, but at least where I live, property values were recently reassessed to account for the large post-pandemic increases. Individual homeowners were generally stuck with these reassessments, while commercial properties, especially those managed by large property management groups, were organized and successfully petitioned to reduce those assessments in disproportionate numbers. So the balance of power was not equal to start with.
hirako2000 30 minutes ago
And, commercial activity tends see revenue follow inflation. And, a business offset expenses.
An individual, could go bankrupt just because the property tax follows its' property value which itself changes nothing with regards to that owner's income.
ThrustVectoring an hour ago
Landlords charge what the market will bear and generally have little if any price elasticity of supply, so they bear nearly 100% of the economic incidence of the tax. This is especially true where housing supply is constrained by zoning policy rather than the price of expanding supply.
sagarm an hour ago
It'll make it so new construction tends to be condos rather than apartments, since the first is heavily preferred by tax policy. This reduction in supply will mean higher rents.
ThrustVectoring 41 minutes ago
ChrisMarshallNY an hour ago
Around here, many renters are pretty well-off. It's really difficult to own a home in the city.
Brooklyn, for example, has seen an explosion of high-rent apartment buildings, occupied by nerds like us.
If you are lucky enough to own a home/apartment in the city, you are either crazy rich, or, more likely, brought the home before it exploded in value, making you "paper rich."
Many of the apartment-dwellers in the city make a lot more than homeowners.
sagarm an hour ago
All that to say you agree with the GP: homeowners, as a class, are wealthier than renters. How owner occupiers choose to spend their wealth has nothing to do with the fact they have it.
ChrisMarshallNY an hour ago
Melatonic 3 hours ago
A lot of states have rent control laws though which would entirely shift the burden on the owner of the building.
asdff 2 hours ago
Usually what they have is rent stabilization rather than control. It is tricky business to really estimate what is reasonable or not under that. For example, rents in my city are allegedly "decreasing," yet if you live in a rent stabilized unit, your landlord is probably incentivized to increase your rent to the limits of the ordinance, it could be 4 or 5% so not unsubstantial especially it being compounded by the year.
And what is more, when a tenant leaves and the landlord puts the unit up for rent again, there is no price limit for what they can ask for new rent. They are free to ask above market rent if they want.
So really I would not say the burden is shifted entirely on the owner of the building when they still possess two levers for ameliorating overhead increases: increasing to the limit of the RSO even when the market doesn't support any increase, and increasing rent on the next tenant. In high demand cities the market rate is not so much a wall, and landlord generally enjoys good success pricing above market rate and still leasing the unit out in a reasonable timeframe for them.
nly an hour ago
Wealth is not income.
You can be wealthy and still have poor cashflow, especially as a leveraged property owner
majormajor an hour ago
For multi-unit housing a cash-poor leveraged property owner sounds like a likely slumlord, so I'd be happy to discourage that situation. More, less-leveraged, property owners instead sounds good.
For owner-occupied, it sounds like someone who made a risky financial decision because of perverse incentives. Which also seems good to revisit.
Also in these cases cash-poor is not low-income. It's likely to be high-income+high-obligations the way you describe it. Hard to get all that leverage otherwise.
nly 36 minutes ago
zaptheimpaler an hour ago
Wealth is easily converted to income. People can sell their properties and move to cheaper ones. If we’re gonna run our entire society on the whims of retirees who are taking up houses big enough to raise families, while also preventing all new construction, while also opposing paying their taxes, while also opposing moving to smaller houses, we are just fucked.
f1shy 5 hours ago
That is what I think will happen at the end.
Spooky23 4 hours ago
Yeah, it’s nasty politics.
What’s happening is income inequality manifesting on the market. The middle and upper middle of the market is seeing accelerated appreciation as incomes rise for the upper quartile. Some places see >10% annualized appreciation over the last 20 years.
The lower part of the market is very different, and are basically depreciating away. Property taxes are the most fair tax for the most part — you basically pay a prorated share of the levy based on the market value of your home. So if the poorer property is getting less valuable proportionally, your share of the tax pie increases. Some states share Medicaid expenses at the county level so there’s demand pressure for more tax levy.
The problem is old people generally cannot afford their homes, and are usually profoundly ignorant about everything except tax avoidance, even when tax avoidance hurts them. The tax knob is one that can be turned, which makes the problems worse. Senior exemptions, veterans exemptions, all increase the overall share for everyone else.
The new Republican platform is accelerating that — pushing property taxes to non-homestead property and driving up sales tax. In other words, it just a consumption tax, which pushes the tax burden to families and inflates retail costs, so grandma can sit in her big house and her kids get to inherit the place at the stepped up cost basis.
asdff 2 hours ago
There's all sorts of factors at play. Uncle is a financial planner and advised grandma to sell her house to Grandma's House LLC for $1 and pass ownership of that LLC to the offspring, avoiding prop 13/prop 19 reassessment in california.
Part of it is honestly just people wanting a safe harbor preserving generational wealth. I think people who are generational wealthy understand what a damn advantage that is and obviously push hard to guarantee that for their family as much as they can. The alternatives are a bit terrifying given the direction of the economy, world, and climate. The only social safety net afterall in this country really beyond an abject poverty level of subsistence is reliance on well off family.
Maybe you can call it a sort of restart of feudalism, but there are no serfs in the mix really. Its not a productive estate in most cases (in some cases sure e.g. family business), but really often just a little lot with a house on it. People don't like the idea of the state coming in and carving that up and carting it off.
And really I think there are far more real things to set the tax burden upon. I mean grandmas home once again produces nothing, it is a box to sleep in; it's value is based on pure speculation. It is now worth 'more' because people say it is worth more and believe in that, not because it now actually does anything it didn't do thirty years ago. It is in far poorer shape than 30 years ago, even. Like, this is not where you find money flowing in this country. Tax where the flows actually are not the stagnant ponds, slowly being filled by the leaks off those profoundly vast flows of money and the speculative abilities those flows grant the flow controllers.
pixelatedindex 2 hours ago
Melatonic 3 hours ago
Wouldn't a European like VAT system help this ? Along with properly taxing the property of corporate and business owned properties.
ponector 2 hours ago
Spooky23 an hour ago
readthenotes1 4 hours ago
It would also place a higher burden on investment home owners so it's not all bad.
dominotw 4 hours ago
how would put burden if costs are simply passed down to renters
tomrod 4 hours ago
VonTum 4 hours ago
throwaway-11-1 3 hours ago
Xylakant 8 hours ago
A major problem with property taxes on owner-occupied housing is that the value the owner derives from the house is not dependent on the resale value of the house. An owner occupied house is not primarily a financial investment in most cases. Any increase in housing value (and thus property taxes) is mostly an increase in the cost of living. Any gain in value cannot easily be realized since it’s not a liquid asset. This leads to a fear of being driven out just because the value of the surrounding neighborhood rises doesn’t mean that the owner’s income rises in lockstep.
One way out could be to tax the value gain at the time of sale, or when the house gets rented out, thus no longer being “owner occupied”.
khuey 7 hours ago
A major problem with decoupling property taxes on owner-occupied housing from market prices is that it removes the biggest incentive for a homeowner to vote for policies that keep the local real estate market in check. An owner occupied house in a desirable area where there is no disincentive to politically engineering a supply shortage becomes a financial investment. Any increase in housing value becomes profit for the owner (or their descendants). This leads to supply restrictions and escalating prices and an increasingly unhealthy society as the young and the poorer are pushed out of the city, county, or even state.
This is essentially what has happened in coastal California over the last 60 years.
esikich 4 hours ago
Why shouldnt coastal property be crazy expensive? It's the most scarce land there is.
an_account 3 hours ago
daedrdev 3 hours ago
EgregiousCube 4 hours ago
If those places became worse places to live as a result, wouldn't that drive property values down?
hirako2000 7 minutes ago
evrydayhustling 4 hours ago
> value the owner derives from the house is not dependent on the resale value of the house
Value is always relative - even if the experience hasn't changed, the rising house price does mean that same experience is being value more highly relative to other opportunities. (In most cases this is because the experience actually has changed: if your neighborhood gets nicer, you are indeed benefitting!)
The bigger fallacy in rising property taxes is that civic services don't necessarily get better or more expensive just because property rates rise. And the bigger unfairness is that homeowners with rising values but not rising income don't always have efficient access to the equity of their homes.
A fair property tax regime would avoid presuming budget increases just due to rising value of housing stock, and might subsidize HELOCs or similar structures for folks who need to access property value to pay taxes.
zaptheimpaler an hour ago
This conveniently ignores all the gains in property value which they can benefit from by refinancing, selling or renting. If they don’t want to pay property taxes on higher values, and don’t care about the value, then we have a simple solution:
Freeze the property taxes and let the government take the entire value gain in the house when its sold.
anticorporate 8 hours ago
> One way out could be to tax the value gain at the time of sale, or when the house gets rented out, thus no longer being “owner occupied”.
My local government put exactly this on the ballot: a small percentage transfer tax on the sale price of the home, which would offset some of the costs we currently pay in ad valorem property taxes.
The local real estate community had a meltdown and poured hundreds of thousands of dollars into defeating it, which my neighbors obliged and did.
dave78 7 hours ago
I think many people would have a hard time believing that a new tax in one area would be offset by lowering taxes in another. Even if they did reduce property taxes shortly after passage, many people would assume they will raise them again later on.
jonhohle 7 hours ago
PopAlongKid 7 hours ago
>> One way out could be to tax the value gain at the time of sale, or when the house gets rented out, thus no longer being “owner occupied”.
>My local government put exactly this on the ballot: a small percentage transfer tax on the sale price of the home,
First comment suggests taxing the gain (income tax), while second comment suggests a tax on sale price (gross receipts tax). Two very different things.
anticorporate 5 hours ago
mikeryan 4 hours ago
I own a home in Berkeley which loves transfer taxes. They’re creative about it though they tax at different rates based on the home sales price. Starting 1/1/27 the transfer tax goes from 2.5% to 3.5% based on the selling price of the home.
It’s been attractive to voters since most homes sell in the first tier.
You can reclaim some of the transfer tax by performing seismic upgrades which is actually something I support in a town with some houses that can be 100 years old.
lostmsu 7 hours ago
The problem with transfer taxes is they bolt you to the place.
jabl 5 hours ago
daedrdev 3 hours ago
It just becomes part of the sale price
europoorean 8 hours ago
The issue with that is the disincentive to sell (or buy), which leads a lot of people to stay put in their oversized home during retirement, for example.
In the UK, 'stamp duty' is something that buyers pay (as opposed to sellers), but sellers also have to buy, so everyone pays to move and everyone stays put to avoid paying.
(And of course no one builds, which is the biggest issue).
I'd say it's OK to defer your property taxes until you sell (or die), but it shouldn't be the default, only something you apply for if you're in a vulnerable position.
I think it's a great idea to let land taxes create the incentives to build efficiently.
nasmorn 2 hours ago
In Austria it is even worse. The stamp duty is only for literally buying the house in your name. Thus all sufficiently expensive real estate is wrapped in shell companies where the transfer is untaxed.
The result - stamp duty is exclusively paid by middle class people actually buying homes, never by the rentier class. They already used the money up front to buy the votes for this law apparently
PunchyHamster 7 hours ago
Except they don't, taxing single house owner is just cost of living increase any time area gets gentrified or more desirable
It's basically excuse to get rid of poor that made a mistake of buying a house in area that turned more expensive 2 decades after.
Tax anything after first house, sure, but taxing house by value is terrible idea that never actually worked in a way proponents are saying it would
swagasaurus-rex 5 hours ago
rahimnathwani 4 hours ago
"the value the owner derives from the house is not dependent on the resale value of the house"
An owner can derive value from the house in one of three ways:
A) Occupy the whole place.
B) Receive rent from a tenant.
C) Something in between (e.g. airbnb one room).
When property prices double, it's likely that rents roughly double. This may not increase the value the owner can derive from (A) but it will sure change the value they can derive from (B).
So they might decide to switch from living in the place to renting it out. If they don't decide to switch, then it indicates the value they derive from living in the property has either gone up, or it was always way higher than the market rent.
It seems like market rent is a reasonable benchmark to use to calculate property taxes, and property value is a reasonable proxy for market rent.
SJC_Hacker an hour ago
> A major problem with property taxes on owner-occupied housing is that the value the owner derives from the house is not dependent on the resale value of the house
Your better believe it is when it comes time to sell.
Or would owners not mind having 0% property taxes in return for the state taking all gains at sale time
mmarq 3 hours ago
> the value the owner derives from the house is not dependent on the resale value of the house
It often is, instead. Eg the resale value of my flat increased because the area where I live became a better place.
anon84873628 2 hours ago
What they mean is the day-to-day "value" of having a roof over your head, in contrast to your ability to make money by selling.
If the area around you is improving substantially, then yes that day-to-day value could be improved by better local shops, maybe a closer office building, nicer parks, etc. Generally stuff like that does not happen quickly though, and really big changes like magically teleporting from boring middle of nowhere to a vibrant cultural downtown don't happen at all.
xnx 8 hours ago
> Any gain in value cannot easily be realized since it’s not a liquid asset.
Reverse mortgage
iso1631 8 hours ago
"Oh no, someone's given me an extra $500k for doing nothing which I'll get when I (or my kids) sell my house, how terrible"
jonhohle 7 hours ago
collinmcnulty 7 hours ago
Exactly. Surely the finance industry can come up with a product that automates this so you automatically sell them a tiny slice of your home to make up the property taxes without it affecting your cash flows.
dghlsakjg 5 hours ago
adrianmonk 3 hours ago
mchusma 8 hours ago
Or just loosen supply side restrictions so much that houses typically don’t go up in value.
Xylakant 8 hours ago
It’s really hard to loosen supply side restrictions on “this somehow became a hip neighborhood.” You can in general make more housing available, but not prevent rising prices in specific neighborhoods.
nkmnz 8 hours ago
YZF 3 hours ago
anon84873628 2 hours ago
goalieca 8 hours ago
The funny thing about land and population growth is that land doesn’t. It’s fixed.
treis 4 hours ago
PunchyHamster 7 hours ago
groundzeros2015 8 hours ago
The premise of real estate (above survival) is living somewhere other people don’t.
nkmnz 8 hours ago
That's basic Econ101: households optimize for (subjective) utility, not for profit on some balance sheet. Taxing households for non-realized gains doesn't take into account liquidity nor the (subjective) negative utility and opportunity cost of selling your home and moving away.
elevation 8 hours ago
This will drive rent up, punishing people who lack the credit to purchase.
TitaRusell 7 hours ago
I disagree. In my country we are currently in a inheritance boom. Everyone who has parents is getting free money.
iso1631 8 hours ago
> One way out could be to tax the value gain at the time of sale
Stamp duty in the UK, horrendous tax. It's better than nothing at offsetting the unearned increase in house (land) value, but far worse than a regular tax.
If you live somewhere for 10 years, then move, then repeat for 40 years, you pay far more than if you never move. This encourages people to live in less suitable houses for longer.
As to your worry about land values increasing -- the owner is deriving benefit. The higher the land value is, the more benefit the owner gets from the land.
dpark 7 hours ago
> If you live somewhere for 10 years, then move, then repeat for 40 years, you pay far more than if you never move.
This sounds like a problem with the way the particular tax is written, not with the idea of taxing housing gains at the time of sale.
> The higher the land value is, the more benefit the owner gets from the land.
What benefit does a homeowner derive from increased land value before selling?
nly 40 minutes ago
iso1631 5 hours ago
shkkmo 5 hours ago
> One way out could be to tax the value gain at the time of sale, or when the house gets rented out, thus no longer being “owner occupied”.
Forcing renters and buyers to pay for the local services instead of property owners seems extremely unfair.
> Any increase in housing value (and thus property taxes) is mostly an increase in the cost of living.
So? If the property values go up then cost of living is going up for renters too. Why should property owners be shielded from this by imposing local service costs on renters who generally have even lower incomes than owners.
poly2it 7 hours ago
> One way out could be to tax the value gain at the time of sale
This is how it works for sales in Sweden, via the so called "reavinstskatt", or profit realisation tax. Funnily enough, it is mostly applied to individuals in practice. To avoid the taxation, companies package properties in subsidiaries, which can then be sold and traded like any other stock. The tax is then postponed until the de jure sale of the property, which never occurs. Individuals are not eligible because the loophole is closed if the legal owner also occupies the property they own.
Shitty-kitty 5 hours ago
This sounds like a plan to make rented properties a more liquid asset and make rent cheaper. Seems like a sound idea to me.
bob1029 8 hours ago
I don't like taxes but I also like having roads, sewage treatment, 100+ psi water pressure, multi-gigabit internet access, and a reasonably constant flow of electricity. The cost of public education and the management of that system is the only serious concern I have with my local taxes.
I actually don't mind the cost of living in my neighborhood going up. The $2500/yr HOA fee is a feature for me. I picked this location precisely because of it. I've lived in many places with virtually no maintenance overhead or economic friction. You may eventually learn that there are two sides to this coin. Neighbors who can afford and are willing to participate in ridiculously scaled housing markets also tend to take better care of their properties and local communities.
sailingparrot 5 hours ago
> Neighbors who can afford and are willing to participate in ridiculously scaled housing markets also tend to take better care of their properties and local communities.
Whereas you take great care of your local community by even refusing to live around anyone not as well off as you ?
Imagine the horror of having to live within 10 miles of a low class smelly poor plebeian, you might have to lay your eyes on their 3 days overgrown lawn from time to time.
tired-turtle 4 minutes ago
I wish poorer areas of US suburban localities had overgrown lawns. In many cases, those neighborhoods are blighted concrete jungles with no foliage save the occasional pavement weed.
cowsandmilk 6 hours ago
You should be concerned if you have 100+ psi water pressure. Anything above 70 is atypical for a residence.
arcanemachiner 2 minutes ago
They must be mistaken about that number.
elevation 7 hours ago
This works in other areas of life. A courtesy charge creates a better environment by giving participants skin in the game and filtering out actors who wouldn’t mind abusing you but wont pay to do so.
fooker 6 hours ago
Someone is pocketing a large fraction of that $2500 while paying 2-3 people a minimum wage to get things done.
sssilver 5 hours ago
In this country of oh-so-much freedom and journalism how can a layperson like myself check whether in the final degree my tax dollars are really paying for someone’s collection of vintage Ferraris, hidden behind an inconspicuous budget item?
henry2023 2 hours ago
MSFT_Edging 6 hours ago
He's saying he likes to pay a $2500 HOA fee to keep the poors away. It doesn't matter where it goes, as long as it filters out undesirables.
jonhohle 7 hours ago
Wait until you get a tyrannical HOA board and realize you have to make a choice between dealing with them or moving. Dealing with them typically involves lawsuits which come out of your HOA fees, which will go up along with all your neighbors who are now angry that their fees have gone up as well. (Ask me about open records my HOA hasn’t delivered for over 350 days.
I pay my city for sewer, water, and trash. I pay an ISP for fiber to the home, a power company for electricity. If you get all those things for $2500/year from your HOA, congratulations.
bluefirebrand 7 hours ago
I have heard way too many horror stories about obnoxious neighbors in HOAs to ever want to live in one, personally
klardotsh 6 hours ago
My friends lost a battle to paint their garage door a slightly different shade of white than the approved Pantone shade. No private entity should ever have that degree of power over one’s private life. Petty tyrants, I tell ya.
chasd00 4 hours ago
PunchyHamster 7 hours ago
Don't have HOA, have everything you have, AMA
all of those services are ones that should be realized by the city, from taxes paid to the city. If they are not, the problem is that people vote for wrong people
koolba 5 hours ago
The problem with having the city pick things like your trash pickup is that you end up bound to whatever choices they make.
In Canada for instance, I’ve seen towns where they have pick up once every two weeks and the canister is not even a full size one. It’s a “gentle” push to get people to recycle and compost.
No way that would fly in Freedom Town USA.
klardotsh 6 hours ago
HOAs in general are nothing but classic American privatization of that which would otherwise be public, because counties and cities here either lack the tax base (rural), budgeting skills (urban), or both, to provide the services some subdevelopments are built with.
It’s dumb. Here in Washington it’s rather common, I’m finding, for rural land plots to be part of a “Road Maintenance Association”. Exact same legal construct as an HOA, but scoped only to road maintenance on roads the county didn’t want to deal with. It would make so much more sense for the county to socialize those roads and reuse the same maintenance crews and vehicles for these stretches of road! But instead, a private entity pays through the nose to duplicate all that maintenance infrastructure (or pay contractors).
chasd00 4 hours ago
You’re stilling paying taxes for nothing in addition to HOA fees. Another fee isn’t the answer.
robswc 5 hours ago
What I don't understand is (because I honestly haven't been afforded the time to sit down and think about it, also it's frustrating), why do taxes generally trend upwards for the average person? Doing napkin math it seems to have gone from ~10% to ~28% for average family. These are %-based, why does it need to change? Why can't cities/towns/counties work with the money their citizens can give?
Happening in Austin, Texas recently. City cites:
- Rising cost of core services
- Weak sales tax revenue. This is the city’s second-largest revenue source, and it has slowed or dipped.
- A shrinking property tax base. Officials point to falling property values, appraisal protests, more business tax exemptions, and little new construction adding value to the tax rolls.
- Disappearing one-time money. Pandemic relief funds have run out, and federal funding cuts were anticipated.
- Rising service costs. The new budget’s highlights include $6 million more for permanent supportive housing services, $6 million more for fire overtime to keep four-person staffing, and extra EMS overtime. Employee raises and social services were also major line items.
It is frustrating... if core services are costing more, cut extracurricular services? Why would you lean so much on sales tax, seems obvious this would revert to a mean? If your budget is reliant on infinite new construction it seems a bad budget? Why is pandemic relief cuts a shock to anyone? More housing services? I'm empathetic but there's more homeless than ever before. I know it's simplifying the problem but it just feels like people are punished with permanent tax increases for governments spending more than they should... we start with a new "floor" tax rate and repeat forever? Is it going to get to the point where we work 50% of our time just to pay taxes?
dghlsakjg 5 hours ago
People, as a rule, do not want less service. Services generally function like a ratchet, where once one has been added it is incredibly difficult to get rid of.
So not only is the cost of service to be thought of, but the quantity of services.
The same happens within services too. The police got a helicopter 5 years ago, are they going to turn down another one, or are they going to explain why the new one needs to be more expensive with more capability? Multiply that across every agency.
robswc 5 hours ago
> People, as a rule, do not want less service. Services generally function like a ratchet, where once one has been added it is incredibly difficult to get rid of.
Makes sense, totally agree... however I don't think generally citizens want to pay _more_ taxes... or at least eventually there's a point where they say enough is enough.
https://www.kut.org/politics/2025-11-05/austin-tx-prop-q-fai...
> The same happens within services too. The police got a helicopter 5 years ago, are they going to turn down another one, or are they going to explain why the new one needs to be more expensive with more capability? Multiply that across every agency.
This should be stopped. Creates exactly the sort of ratcheting effect you described. Mind boggling to me. I've been in-charge of small budgets and buying more stuff after making more money is a big decision, not taken lightly because we can't assume present returns will match future returns.
c0balt 5 hours ago
gpt5 5 hours ago
I think this misses the important point of how governments tend to get less efficient at scale, and over time.
You could pay more and still get worse services.
robswc 4 hours ago
hiworld6543 2 hours ago
Percentage increases are the result of your money being worth less. That’s why every good government fights inflation. Stable values of money make it easier to plan budgets, estimate costs, lure investors, and collect taxes.
It’s when the value of money decreases that government has to choose among reducing spending (often by reducing services), increasing tax rates, and electoral losses. Most choose incremental tax rate increases because it’s easiest and the people likely to complain are unwilling to run for office to replace the people who raised the taxes.
sebastos an hour ago
Not arguing that sequence of thought doesn't occur, but it bothers me because the reasoning is faulty. If money's worth less, then the appraised value of my home measured in dollars should correspondingly increase. If the biggest taxes are assessed as rates on things that tend to scale with inflation, then it ought to be relatively indifferent to inflation. The only changes you should have to make to your tax system in response to inflation should be raising flat rate taxes.
bunderbunder 5 hours ago
I don't know about Austin, but where I am the single biggest source of rising costs for the city seems to be its pension fund. Which seems to have severely underperformed the market thanks to the efforts of hedge fund managers who were all hype about dotcoms in 1999, mortgage-backed securities in 2006, cryptocurrencies in 2018, and are probably pretty excited about AI right now.
robswc 4 hours ago
Very frustrating. ATP the people in charge of that mismanagement are surely out of office...
iAMkenough an hour ago
This doesn't explain it all, but worth considering.
As the cost of living increases, so does the cost of providing public safety workers and their union-guaranteed pensions and benefits. In most cities, public safety eats up a large chunk of the operating/general fund budget (in Austin it's 71.2%)[1, pg. 30], and reducing public safety budgets kills your representative's clout. You yourself can advocate for lower hiring rates or pay and pensions if that's a concern.
Extracurricular services are highly visible and therefore highly defended by the advocates that claim they reduce crime (by providing structure to youth with nothing else to do, for example). Representatives are typically replaced with those that defend those highly-visible services. They will instead reduce less-visible support services (like IT) that make public safety more efficient/effective.
Since you can't outlaw homelessness, citizens that complain about homeless activity motivate local governments to provide more services that make homelessness less visible/likely. Without those services, public safety budgets need to increase to address more desperation on the streets.
As the population ages and needs more medical care they can't afford, demand for EMS and senior services increases. I've seen arguments to freeze or eliminate property taxes for seniors, but balanced budgets mean non-seniors have to pay more to cover the increased service costs.
You can outlaw abortion for unfit parents, but that also likely creates more welfare service demand over time.
To me, private businesses not increasing wages to meet a standard cost of living means an increase for demand of welfare and public safety services. Local governments can attempt to hold private businesses to a higher tax burden, but are usually preempted by state law in Republican-led states. Your local government has no control over that and has to respond somehow.
To me, the frustration is best placed with private businesses that can afford to provide for their workforce, but instead rely on welfare services to give their workers what they need to survive. ~55% of households in the U.S. earn less than $100,000 per year (before taxes). [2]
[1] https://austin.widen.net/s/x8q5hmnwtw/fy-2026-27-city-of-aus...
Projectiboga 5 hours ago
In New York state half of property taxes is for county contributions to the state medicaid fund. This excludes the seperate schools tax which is property based. Health care costs drive up many costs in the US including all libality insurances. The second part of this tax mess comes from the excessive military budgets since the late 1970s most of our national debt as of the mid 1990s was from that waste of resources. I understand we shouldn't just cut abruptly but our spend on weapons needs to slowly decline while we fund the transfer of workers out of the military industrial complex. And there are a lot of structural accounting problems like how personal credit card and automobile financing isn't tax deductbable but leveraged buyout interest is. The tax exemption for share buybacks is another budget drain. My instinct is we need a universal national income tax along with a land tax that in some ways exempts housing up to some middle or upper middleclass level.
robswc 4 hours ago
> In New York state half of property taxes is for county contributions to the state medicaid fund.
That is an insane statistic. Surely the state can throw some weight around to say enough is enough?
I just had my own insane encounter with healthcare. They "accidentally" billed us insurance rate which was about 4-5x more than self-pay. Why is there 4-5x overhead when dealing with insurance? (I know there's the negotiation stuff) but also seems to be quite a mess. I'm actually more mad at hospitals and clinics lately than insurance. Seems they have agreements with companies to "dispense" things at 4-5x the actual price, expecting insurance or taxpayers to pick up the tab. Seems like blatant fraud.
Sorry for the rant, I agree with everything else you mention :)
tyoma 3 hours ago
matteoraso 3 hours ago
dominotw 4 hours ago
> In New York state half of property taxes is for county contributions to the state medicaid fund.
Chicago..hold my beer. 80% of taxes here go to funding pensions for 2% of city population. Our parking meter money goes to gulf countries because we sold them to pay for city services back in 08.
surfmike 6 hours ago
I think land-value taxation, with a cap on properties based on income (and wealth) for your first home, is the way.
I do think there is something special about the idea of home, and that home ownership should be encouraged. It brings people stability. People shouldn't be pushed out just because others have more income than them.
At the same time, we do need property taxes. In California, rate increases are capped, so older owners often pay pennies compared to new homeowners. Harmonize the taxes, while capping it.
singpolyma3 5 hours ago
Why should there be a cap? If you're so rich as to own some property, why do you need protection from paying a reasonable rate of tax?
bunderbunder 5 hours ago
Consider my neighborhood in Chicago. It has gentrified rapidly over the past couple decades. But it wasn't always so wealthy. My retireee neighbor probably bought her house for no more than about $100,000, but now the market rate for a house like hers is more like $500,000. With that comes about $20,000 per year in property taxes.
That might be reasonable for the wealthier families who are moving into the neighborhood and driving up the land values. But it's pushing her into poverty.
dragonwriter 5 hours ago
sephamorr 5 hours ago
jefftk 4 hours ago
pixelatedindex 5 hours ago
bryzaguy 5 hours ago
You don’t need to be rich to own. Some people are lucky to buy a home where/when it’s cheap. Imagine the value (and taxes) outpacing your income. Like an elderly person with fixed income.
coryrc 5 hours ago
talon8635 5 hours ago
HWR_14 5 hours ago
Because a cap or exclusion or credit for your primary home lets people who can just barely afford it to purchase their own home. And that's a good thing.
bunderbunder 5 hours ago
trylfthsk 5 hours ago
swasheck 4 hours ago
Likely because of legacy homeowners who bought their $2m home 50 years ago for $25k and are now retired. They don’t have the income to pay those taxes even though their non-liquid net worth is way high
TulliusCicero 4 hours ago
People are arguing about this but just making the cap income-dependent seems an easy fix.
rubyn00bie 5 hours ago
Maybe you’re referring to someone who owns multiple properties… But I think if someone owns the house they live in, there should be a cap once they reach a certain age. My Mom is retired and owns her home, but she still effectively pays rent on the property. She has a fixed income and the property tax comes in around 16% of her monthly income.
That doesn’t seem too bad, until you see all of her other costs have gone up dramatically because inflation has been high post pandemic. She only has so much money to spend every month, and if her property taxes kept going up too, she’d eventually be unable to afford to live in her house. She only owns her home because she was worried about being secure later in life and prioritized it above things like vacations or cars.
For a lot of folks as they age, even if they’re frugal, it’s not easy to survive. If you live for 20-30 years after retirement you’re likely to have your buying power cut by half if not more.
With that said, if someone’s home is worth more than say 10x the average price in your area, or your assets are $10+ million[1], I think there’s room for increased taxation. My primary point was simply being a property isn’t necessarily the right measure to determine a reasonable tax rate.
[1] The number obviously depends on where someone lives. Living in New York or SF, $10 million dollars of assets would be an extremely comfortable life but most likely not a lavish lifestyle. But… $10 million dollars in rural Mississippi is going to have you living an extremely lavish lifestyle.
epistasis 5 hours ago
LadyCailin 5 hours ago
You may not always be that rich, and having to liquidate your only house to pay the taxes is and should be an unpopular opinion.
method_capital 5 hours ago
lol caps prevent "unreasonable" rates of tax
Balooga 3 hours ago
Get rid of the fixed mortgage rate. Owners will sell when they can't afford the mortgage rate; the new owner will pay property taxes at the current rate.
Apart from the US, there aren't may other countries that allow fixed rate mortgages, and not a 30-year fixed.
dyauspitr 4 hours ago
Land value taxation is the worst idea ever. I already don’t like the idea of property taxes, where you have to pay for a piece of land you own. The ideal should be that unless you’re making use of public services you can live a free life. You should not have to pay just to exist. I’d much rather that income is taxed for the higher tax brackets more.
achenatx 8 hours ago
In most jurisdictions (not califoria) property tax increases are somewhat unlinked from your actual property value
1) the tax entity sets their budget (usually an increase)
2) the valuation group values all properties
3) the tax entity sets a tax rate to raise their budgeted amount. budgeted amount = tax rate * total value
Most people think if their value doubles, their tax doubles. This mostly isnt the case. If everyone's value doubles, the rate decreases so they raise the budgeted amount. Mostly property tax increases are due to ever increasing budgets not rising values.
1) If everyone's value stayed the same, and the budget increased, your tax would increase by the amount of the budget increase
2) if everyone's value doubled, but the budget stayed the same, your tax would not increase
3) if your value doubled, everyone else's stayed the same, and the budget stayed the same, your tax would double.
goalieca 7 hours ago
Let’s say you wee solid middle class and bought your forever home, in what was at the time, the near suburbs. Now that neighbourhood is unaffordable. The city might set a percentage of the home value as their target but now your well placed forever home is beyond your what your pension can afford. This happened a lot in Canada.
The worst part is that for all these taxes, the level of service has dropped since that home was bought.
guelo 7 hours ago
Isn't it better for society if retirees downsize to a retirement community and allow young families to move in to the neighborhood with schools and amenities?
klardotsh 5 hours ago
atomicnumber3 5 hours ago
VLM 5 hours ago
coryrc 5 hours ago
Because boomers voted to defer fully funding pensions until later. Now it's later. We're paying for past work and current work.
In Washington State, Puget Sound Energy is a for-profit utility owned by mostly pension plans! Their guaranteed ROI is sucked out of the productive economy. Everywhere you look rent is being extracted either by the 0.01% or the elderly, and the working class must slave to get 1/10 what they gave themselves.
ndriscoll 5 hours ago
frmersdog 5 hours ago
This is but one of the ways well-meaning people get displaced. And, frankly, th the is hypothetical family is the most fortunate of that class. They have equity and a pension. Playing my tiny Monoprice violin, from the 4th apartment I've lived in over the past 10 years (not including couch-surfing). And even I'm still on the "fortunate" side of the line, if just barely.
I don't think people really understand how bad it is out here. I imagine that if a dignified line on the base standard were held, there would be less of a need for this kind of middle-class pearl-clutching.
VLM 5 hours ago
I live in a municipality that taxes like OP and you don't understand how OP described it. Lets try with easy numbers:
Y2K: buy an 1/8th of a million dollar house. There are 10 houses in the village and an annual budget of $10K. The total value of all houses in my village is $1.25M but it really doesn't matter. As the owner of 1/10th of the "total housing value" in the village, I pay 1/10th the annual budget of $10K which is $1K prop tax.
If your mental model is the city tax rate is 0.8%, that is ... numerically correct but its mere numerology.
2026: house is now worth 1/2 of a million dollars. There are 10 houses in the village and an annual budget of $10K. The total value of all houses in my village is $5M but it really doesn't matter. As the owner of 1/10th of the "total housing value" in the village, I pay 1/10th the annual budget of $10K which is $1K prop tax.
If your mental model is the city tax rate historically was 0.8%, then you'd have to pay $4K/yr, but it doesn't even remotely work that way, so it simply doesn't matter. Its just numerology. My fraction of total property ownership "value" times the annual village budget is what I'll be taxed, which in this case is the same old $1K.
In reality grandma gets kicked to the street because inflation raises the price of everything, including real estate, but real estate is not even remotely the problem or the solution. Grandma might have afforded a house and its taxes when a McDonalds Big Mac was 75 cents each but now that its $13.49 the village budget has gone up 10x, 20x what it was when she bought, so she better find a way to make 10x, 20x more money or not only is she not going to pay her fair share of the budget via taxes, she's not going to eat food either.
"Now that neighbourhood is unaffordable." Thats the real problem. No one can move in and pay the city budget, and the city budget explodes because now they have to pay the dog catcher at least $250K/yr to live there and nobody can afford to rob peter to pay paul quite that much...
guelo 7 hours ago
Depends on the jurisdiction. I've lived in both, budget based rates like you describe (Minnesota), and fixed rates with market based assessments (D.C.). I wonder which is more common.
WarmWash 8 hours ago
I don't know how economics escaped basic elementary/middle school curriculum. There is so much confusion in people's lives around money, and so much destruction that results from it, yet we still don't teach the basics of what is going on in school. It's totally perplexing to me.
rayiner 8 hours ago
Most people aren't capable of understanding numbers: https://politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/06/msnbc/bad-math.... You can't educate them to do it, any more than you can educate your average person to be able to reliably hit three pointers. It's a physical limitation.
That's why socialization is so important. You can't get voters to understand the difference between billions and trillions or put anything in context when the numbers get that big. All you can do is socialize them from an early age to have directionally correct gut feelings like, "there's no such thing as a free lunch" or "saving is good."
boplicity 4 hours ago
Hilarious. They were right to do the comparison, but got it oh so wrong.
I was recently trying to understand Elon Musk's wealth, and come up with similar comparison: For example, he could make millionaire's of every single person in Seattle, and still have hundreds billions of dollars of wealth left over. Truly mind boggling.
WarmWash 3 hours ago
supertrope 7 hours ago
Economics class is usually in high school and it's optional.
Schools are really expensive to operate. Most districts and schools make it easy to graduate to maximize their graduation rates. Standardized testing is suppose to catch local lowering of standards but state departments of education are also under pressure to maximize test pass rate. So resources flow into pulling the bottom quintile of students up to a minimum standard. This means teaching to the test on math and English, and de-prioritizing other subjects or dropping them entirely.
We could expand the breadth of educational basic standards. This would require a cultural shift in valuing formal education more, increasing teacher training/recruiting resources, making schools year round, more centralization of education budgets at the state or even Federal level.
Generally speaking public schools tend to be better in states like Massachusetts than Kansas.
VLM 5 hours ago
"it's optional."
LOL, no.
In the majority of states in the USA, districts in the state are not allowed to graduate students without taking both an econ class and a personal finance class. Kansas is one of the stricter states. I can only think of three off the top of my head that do not mandate econ/finance classes, Colorado, Massachusetts, and Washington. Pretty hilarious to claim MA has better education requirements than KS LOL when its the other way around. Also hilarious when the average SAT score in Kansas is 1256 vs a mere 1128 in Massachusetts, LOL. I can't immediately think of any way that the schools in MA are better than KS, which is pretty funny. Is there even one stat or requirement where MA beats KS? Maybe college sports scores...
That said, public schools are mandatory pass, and the kids know it.
I think the problem with education is the prepack solutions sold by politicians intentionally don't reflect reality, sometimes intentionally reflect the opposite, and are designed to be ineffective or even actively counterproductive.
absurddoctor 4 hours ago
everybodyknows 7 hours ago
Scarcity of instructors competent to teach such subjects? Followed by the natural bureaucratic response: Pretend no such need exists.
01284a7e 8 hours ago
Destruction? It's by design:
"One man gathers what another man spills."
WarmWash 8 hours ago
I know cynics would run to say this, but on the whole the lack of knowledge is an unambiguous net negative even to the powers that be. And they even know this, but somehow it's still expected for people to just innately understand what's going on, but they don't. And everyone else who does have the insight just ends up perpetually frustrated.
01284a7e 8 hours ago
add-sub-mul-div 8 hours ago
If calculators had never been invented then perhaps arithmetic and economic literacy would be required of citizens. A big problem is that we invented a tool for something that's most powerful when you can do it easily and constantly in your head. People are not pulling out the tool to use it constantly because there's friction to that.
digitaltrees 4 hours ago
It seems like we should tax non economic wealth hoarding more not less. We have a glut of elderly people occupying houses that are far too large for their current needs while young families can’t afford larger homes. People forget that part of what property tax exist is to encourage dormant assets to trade hands from Low economic use to higher economic use. If some isn’t using a property to its highest and best use because there are no carrying costs then they will just hoard it and have no incentive to sell it to someone that could use it more productively.
It would make a lot more sense to increase the carrying costs of homes so that people are inclined to sell them when they no longer need a particular configuration.
twoodfin 34 minutes ago
How is choosing to continue to live in a house you own “non economic wealth hoarding”?
digitaltrees 5 minutes ago
I have a 4500 sqft home with 6 bedrooms because I have kids a home office a recording studio and workshop. My Nextdoor neighbors are retired and have adult kids that moved out. Their house is the same size. They could downsize and make that inventory available for other next generation families. Instead they hoard it with a mortgage that is long since paid off and thousands of sqft that serve no purpose. They don’t even heat or cool the whole thing. Now extrapolate that across the whole economy. The obvious supply and demand distortion explains part of the reason homes are as expensive as they are.
nradov 4 hours ago
It's not necessarily that people forgot that reason for property taxes existing. Many voters fundamentally disagree with that as a valid reason. This is a matter of ideology and values as much as economics, and not everyone shares your priorities. You can label them as greedy hoarders or whatever but that won't change how they vote.
digitaltrees 3 minutes ago
But they aren’t the majority. And we can enact other policies to shift the incentive structure.
scoofy 2 hours ago
I feel like people don't realize that this is how aristocracy happens.
Like, yea, property taxes suck... but the point is you're wealthy even if you want to pretend you're not. Passing the tax burden onto others, just because you can, is exactly how we end up in a world where wealthy landowners live like literally nobility while the people renting their land pay the taxes for their infrastructure.
misterspaceman 3 hours ago
"Housing should be affordable, except when I sell my house for a million dollars" (https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/housing-should-be-afford...)
SamuelAdams 8 hours ago
> I would like the price of my home to rise, because it increases my wealth, but I would also like the prices of all other homes to fall, so that I could sell my house and buy an even nicer house.
There’s a way to do this. Buy in a VHCOL area like San Francisco, wait for 3-10 years, then move to Texas, Florida, South Carolina, etc. Real estate is highly localized so you do not need to stay in the same area all the time.
The homelab guy at CloudFlare did this because the prices of real estate in Austin are actually falling.
dahart 8 hours ago
I wouldn’t count somewhere I don’t want to live being cheaper as the prices of all other homes falling… ;) Nor as lack of need to stay either - if real estate prices were the only thing keeping people around, cities might not exist.
xnx 8 hours ago
> Buy in a VHCOL area like San Francisco
How does this work? VHCOL does not mean that prices will appreciate or even sustain.
pixelatedindex 4 hours ago
SF history very much indicates that prices will continue to appreciate and sustain pretty comfortably.
derwiki 8 hours ago
I mean yes it’s a bet, but real estate in SF has historically done very well. The progressives/NIMBYs have a strong presence to thwart new housing so that existing properties increase in value.
bob1029 8 hours ago
ATX real estate is still in free fall. You can win making a move within the state at this point.
watwut 8 hours ago
Just dont complain about loss of relationships and community while also advocating for policies that make lasting community ties impossible.
theonealtair an hour ago
I think the surge in people wanting to reduce taxes is because it rose at an unexpected rate that no one was or could prepare for. So I almost blame the speed of increase for the recent conversations, rather than the idea of people wanting their house to rise and others to fall; yes that is part, but I don’t think it is the majority.
pinkmuffinere 2 hours ago
> the property tax ... has the standard problems of a wealth tax: specifically, you can have more wealth–say, the value of your home, your business, or your retirement account went up–without having immediate income to pay a higher level of taxes. Thus, older voters who tend to have higher accumulated wealth, partly in the form of home equity, but also lower current income, are a politically powerful and sympathetic group in the push to reduce or eliminate property taxes.
We should expect this phenomenon to grow stronger as more high-earners hit retirement age, right? I'd guess we have another 20-30 years at least before this incentive starts to "level out", and that's only if we somehow see wealth distribution become less extremely correlated with age.
comrade1234 8 hours ago
No property tax where I live, which is true for about half of the Swiss Kantons. There used to be a system where they would calculate how much you would be paid if you rented out your property and then charged you tax on that value. So basically a property tax.
But they got rid of that tax while at the same time removing the ability to deduct mortgage interest. So now it makes most sense to pay off your loans.
Mortgages are different here - they are interest-only loans for usually 1 to 5 years. And when the loan expires you have the opportunity to pay off as much as possible and then renew the loan for the remainder.
eertami 8 hours ago
True it's not a direct property tax, but house value is included in total wealth and is thus taxed through the general wealth tax.
bradleyjg 8 hours ago
There’s no reason the local government budget should increase at the same rate as the property values in the taxed area. Property taxes should generally increase at the rate of inflation not because property values increase.
However, where I live local government is wildly inefficient. So in that case property taxes should go down while property taxes go up via the expedient of competent governance. Alas.
xnx 8 hours ago
> There’s no reason the local government budget should increase at the same rate as the property values in the taxed area.
There's some reason. City workers may need to live in the area. If housing becomes more expensive, the city may need to pay higher wages.
derwiki 8 hours ago
Sure. But that’s why schools in California are underfunded.
bradleyjg 6 hours ago
California doesn’t have a property tax system. They have a tax on newcomers. It’s entirely corrupt.
derwiki 5 hours ago
Nipola 7 hours ago
I think it's a great idea to let land taxes create incentives for efficient building.
greyface- 8 hours ago
If you view homes as consumer goods rather than financial assets, the tension disappears.
gdulli 7 hours ago
If the value of a house doesn't increase, then the property taxes, upkeep, mortgage interest, and selling fees would make home ownership untenable and worse than renting. And then if you rent the problem gets pushed up to the landlords anyway.
PunchyHamster 7 hours ago
So you are saying that somehow landlord can pay all the same taxes and offer cheaper rent than buying it ?
Also did your six neurons figured out that it would also cause rent to decrease yet ?
klardotsh 5 hours ago
glitchc 8 hours ago
It's nice that you would like the world to be this way but it's time to put this tired old canard to bed. It's not individuals but the financial system that treats houses as assets. They do so by extending mortgages. Try getting one for your car.
jstanley 7 hours ago
I'm pretty sure people buy cars on finance all the time.
groundzeros2015 8 hours ago
Assets != investments.
It’s a consumer good most people want and will pay for and it retains its use for a very long time. So naturally there are fairly liquid markets and loans for it.
astura 8 hours ago
Yeah, I view my house as a consumer good and I don't want the value of my home to increase relative to inflation - ignoring taxes if I have to sell it I'd just have to buy another house at an increased price which will take up any realized gains from the transaction. Plus the fees involved in the cost of buying/selling are higher now b/c they are usually a percentage of the transaction.
Grombobulous 7 hours ago
I can see how, conceptually, shifting tax burden to companies rather than individuals puts public services at risk. Companies don’t really have a lot of incentive to want things like quality schools, parks, and other non-profit public services.
On the other hand, property taxes seem to be a pretty flawed system that still result in inequalities. Individual homeowners hate them and will do anything to lower their burden. More wealthy and mobile people will move to different jurisdictions specifically to save on tax burden. There are extreme examples like The Villages in Florida where the heavy demographics skew toward older residents means that minimal funding reaches services that benefit younger families who work there as service industry workers. My understanding is that this is a particularly extreme arrangement in the villages: if you lose your employment within the jurisdiction you have to pull your kids out of the local schools immediately.
Then you have issues where you get poor jurisdictions and wealthy ones based on property values. Some states help mitigate this by pooling property taxes across the state for school funding.
I’ve heard that many condo buildings in my area have a standing arrangement with a law firm to submit appraisal appeals every single year and the law firm is paid on a percentage based on the savings they achieve.
This system can’t be efficient for anyone involved. When you really think about it this is like a siphon of money that could be going into public services into a private law firm.
The thing about property taxes especially those that have owner-occupier exceptions is that they sort of work okay because they’re a good approximation for wealth. They’re still regressive but you can pretty safely assume that someone who owns a second home is wealthy enough to pay a high tax rate.
On the other hand, that arrangement passes more costs on to the lower income renter. Their property owner landlord has higher property taxes than owner-occupiers and theoretically passes those costs on to the renter.
I think someone could devise a better system and do away with property taxes as they function today entirely. We need a system that makes all the stakeholders in our society feel like every dollar they invest is a positive investment with returns.
childofhedgehog 8 hours ago
Interestingly enough, it’s the opposite in NH. Our taxes just increase 1,000 each year to pay for horrible public schools while also giving state school budget funds to everyone that wants to homeschool or sent their kids to one of the many alternative schools we have. I would love to know how much of the US this actually reads as true for, because my friends in various other states also feel very similarly about their taxes going up and the housing prices not so much.
guepe 8 hours ago
School system and taxation for schools in NH is very specific to NH « low/no taxes » mantra. I am a resident of a neighbor state with several co-workers living in NH and I recall 15 years ago that there were massive school funding differences between towns. So there was an attempt at redistributing taxes to help pay for other schools from other towns, which was extended to all schools (freedom!) - so home schooling etc. Is NH state funding local schools in some form ? Typically it’s a mix of local, state and federal funds…
WarmWash 8 hours ago
If you really want to rage, read about Hasidic cults in NY/NJ gaming government funds.
elevation 7 hours ago
I was encouraged by a story I heard from NPR about a Hasidic community turning out the vote and using official powers to take private a school building that had been underfunded under municipal control. It was genuinely impressive how much they changed their local community.
I understand how this would be infuriating to other locals. But it shows the power of community organization. They don’t win because America is systemically pro Hasidic, they simply turned out the vote (after years of non-participation.). This is an encouragement to be active in your own community. If you don’t, someone else may do it for you.
supertrope 7 hours ago
WarmWash 6 hours ago
scottious 8 hours ago
I swear so many societal problems have their roots in the attitude of "I've got mine, screw everybody else"
I've seen people completely change their attitudes about things once they own a home. I know a self-proclaimed liberal who claims to care about people suddenly go all NIMBY because they are buying a $2M house and now they don't want duplexes in their neighborhood and don't like the idea of more housing being built ("we're full"). They feel entitled to a high (and increasing) property value in a desirable area.
I hate it so much
OptionOfT 8 hours ago
But isn't it understandable? You work your whole life to buy a piece of property. But not just a piece of property anywhere. It's a specific one, in a specific neighborhood, in a specific zone. All of these things tie into the $ that you paid for that property. Regardless of the change in value, a change there impacts how you perceive living there.
If all of the sudden the neighborhood behind you gets rezoned to industrial and you get a datacenter nearby, everybody understands you're up in arms.
If at the same time the neighborhood behind you gets converted from 200 single-family homes to 200 8-plexes, complaining is NIMBY. Even though it has the same dramatic impact on the quality of life you bought into. Way more noise, way more street parking, cars racing late at night etc.
twoodfin 8 hours ago
Why should society value stability of your quality of life (which is a pretty nebulous bundle of your preferences and environment—neither of which we can bet on being stable in any event) over the interests of all those people who want to live on land that can readily support them—and without putting any true undue burden on your ability to do the same on your land?
MisterMower 3 hours ago
wcfrobert 5 hours ago
So the fact that we're ladder pulling entire generations of young people is both understandable and natural...
groundzeros2015 8 hours ago
You need extremely high levels of trust and community to incentive the kind of behavior you are asking for. That is not reinforced or taught at any of our schools or government institutions. It only exists in small family or religious communities.
So absent of that, I think your personal incentives also lead you to your current housing policy preferences. Don’t you?
mikewarot 4 hours ago
My house has appreciated at a ridiculous rate. Personally I'd be fine if it hadn't. It's not in great shape. It's literally the cheapest house in town.
klardotsh 3 hours ago
Fixing owner-occupied property taxes to the fair market value or sale price (whichever is higher) at the time of last change in ownership (by any means: purchase, inheritance, transfer, etc.), and then adjusting that amount annually or semiannually for inflation (to account for folks who bought their house 40 years ago and would otherwise get away with paying $5 in taxes) seems like the most reasonable compromise here if we want to retain property taxation (which is debatable - an income tax can achieve everything a property tax can, without punishing folks who own their house free and clear and no longer wish to work as hard as they did while paying said house off... or can't anymore). Modulo edge cases like inflation grossly outstripping investment returns (hi, 2020s!), this ensures retired folks can stay retired.
Taxation based on the theoretical monetary value you could extract if you sold your primary domicile is probably the dumbest possible policy, because it leads to people being pushed out of their homes (or our of retirement, or into higher-paying jobs they don't want, or whatever). Houses do not have to be viewed as investment vehicles, they can simply be residences.
As far as property taxation on non-owner-occupied units... up for debate, but I think fixing to most recent transfer time's FMV works reasonably well here, too.
wewewedxfgdf 2 hours ago
Houses should be for living, not a financial instrument/investment.
zugi 4 hours ago
Corollary: I would like the value of my house to rise, and I would like housing costs to fall to make housing more affordable.
1970-01-01 3 hours ago
Pretty much "I would like to eat cake for dinner, while my stomach gets salad."
nkmnz 8 hours ago
> One might think that homeowners would be happy that their largest asset has appreciated substantially in value, as homes did,...
This is absurd. There's absolutely no benefit to you if the value of your house increases if you have no intention of selling it. That's exactly the point of treating owner-occupied homes differently from commercially owned property. The author should be embarrassed that he, as a an economist, doesn't know that in economic theory, households do not optimize for profit on some balance sheet, but for personal (subjective) utility. That's econ 101.
garbawarb 8 hours ago
Yes there is. You own a more valuable asset, so now even if you want to keep it you could take out a loan against it for a greater amount than if it hadn't appreciated.
nkmnz 7 hours ago
Your statement is based on assumptions that just don't hold for many people. First and foremost, you imply a subjective utility of receiving a loan. For many people, having loans - especially collateralized against your home - has negative utility, not positive. Case in point: someone who'd need to take our a loan to pay the property tax.
But even if you were right for the majority of home owners: feel free to tax collateralized homes as commercial property based on the volume of the mortgage. Case solved.
aceazzameen 8 hours ago
You mean take out a loan to pay for the increased taxes? The banks win with that one. Some people, especially as they age, are seeking out simplicity with their finances amongst everything else.
s1artibartfast 8 hours ago
It is basically the billionaire/ unrealized gains argument.
I can take a loan against or collateralized my home value.
I can have greater operational flexibility if I know I have a deep financial backup.
There is something to it, even if overstated
nkmnz 7 hours ago
You're making a valid point, but not in favor of taxing owner-occupied homes, but in favor of treating collateralized homes as commercial property. I'd be okay with that as long as the basis for taxation is the volume of the mortgage.
s1artibartfast 2 hours ago
jzemeocala 5 hours ago
Just reading all of these comments. I am reminded as to why anarchists view property as theft
WarOnPrivacy 4 hours ago
Millions of us: We would like to be housed please. We're still recovering from the 2021 rental markets that forced people with jobs and savings into homelessness.
Regime in charge: Enjoy these property tax reforms that will lead to higher housing costs and (further) transfer of wealth towards people who already own homes. Let us know what else we can do to keep people in lower classes trapped and vulnerable to exploitation.
Razengan 8 hours ago
I saw a post on YouTube about how someone's dad was struggling to pay their property taxes. One of the comments went like this:
"America, where you can spend your entire life paying off mortgage and then still be one missed tax payment from losing it all."
Is that true and how is this not perpetual serfdom if you can't ever really own a home?
chasd00 3 hours ago
They don’t evict you but put a lien on your home. When it’s sold the gov gets their taxes then. Also, a sheriff is an elected official and evicting an 80 year old because they can’t pay their taxes is not good for their career.
derwiki 7 hours ago
Surely one missed tax payment is not enough for the government to evict and assume ownership? I see these cases in SF occasionally and it takes years of non-payment.
HWR_14 5 hours ago
Is there any country where I can walk into town with a bag of money, buy a house in cash, and never have to pay taxes on it again? EU countries either have a property tax or a wealth tax that includes people's first homes.
greyface- 4 hours ago
You're looking for allodial title. It's essentially impossible to obtain today.
Razengan 3 hours ago
trelane 7 hours ago
> Is that true and how is this not perpetual serfdom if you can't ever really own a home?
https://phillipslytle.com/a-review-of-new-yorks-response-to-...
Until 2023, some (many?) would sell off your house and pocket the difference, even if it exceeded the tax liability!
add-sub-mul-div 5 hours ago
Fine, you win. We're all serfs. You've redefined "serfdom" to mean living in a modern civilization with public infrastructure, and the property tax tradeoff that comes with it. I'll choose this serfdom until a better viable option presents itself.
s1artibartfast 8 hours ago
Because Serfs didnt own the land. Lords did but had taxes.
Razengan 3 hours ago
Apparently medieval people owned quite a bit of property, possibly more than the average person today (though not the same in technological value of course):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Em96NVxO9Q — So This is Progress (Terry Jones, BBC, 1991)
s1artibartfast 2 hours ago
risyachka 4 hours ago
And I would like for housing costs to fall and become commodity.
wesselbindt 5 hours ago
I think society should be structured in such a way as to incentivize contributing to society. Heal the sick, get rewarded, feed the hungry, get rewarded, teach the ignorant, get rewarded. Own a thing; no reward as far as I'm concerned. Owning stuff _is_ the reward, not something to be incentivized. It's its own incentive. Why should society give a gold star to someone for owning a toothbrush, or a house? They're a reward in themselves.
lo_zamoyski 5 hours ago
One of the most offensive beliefs in this context, one that has been normalized, is that a house is an investment.
Varelion 5 hours ago
Housing should not be a commodity
jmyeet 2 hours ago
So many of our current problems can be traced back to ever-increasing house prices. Homeowners who are voters have been duped into creating a society that allows the hoarding of land and turning your home into an "investment". This hurts everybody in three ways:
1. No matter how high the value of your house, you still own one housing unit of wealth. If you sell it, you still need to live somewhere else. So the only way to "get ahead" is to buy "investment properties", which is hoarding housing;
2. Housing costs are an input into everything you do and buy. Food more expensive? Well, if housing is more expensive then the workers who produce your food need higher wages to survive. The place where your food is made or sold has a higher rent. So higher housing prices decrease real wages even if you own your own home; and
3. When land becomes the best investment, which it has been for years, then it destroys any productive use of capital. It's competing for the same dollars. Why invest in a factory that makes widgets? That might fail. But a housing estate? Banks give you good collaterization. Governments create policy to make sure you will never fail. Demand is inelastic.
Ever-increasing house prices is just stealing from the next generation. That's all it's doing. Yet so many government polices are designed to enshrine and protect increasing house prices as an explicit and implicit policy goal.
The problems with property taxes are:
1. They don't go up fast enough. So it acts as a tax break to market incumbents. If property taxes properly reflected market value, it would act as a brake on increasing house prices.
2. Property tax increases are often capped (eg Prop 13 in CA); and
3. On an investment property, higher rents should increase property values because you've increased the value of the housing and land. This too would act as a brake on ever-increasing rents.
It should be essentially impossible for non-residents to own housing somewhere they don't live. Owning more than one or two properties should be punitively taxed if not outright impossible.
all2 4 hours ago
This is a potentially reductive take, but, property tax is theft.
In the guise of 'paying your fair share to be a part of society', property tax is essentially the institution of serfdom to the royalty of state bureaucracy.
Property tax is effectively the same as rent, but the one collecting rent also has martial and lawfare capabilities. Not to mention effectively unlimited funds with which to crush anyone who doesn't fall in line.
If what you have can be taken by another if you don't meet some set of conditions, you don't really own that thing, do you? It's more like a loaner than it is 'I own this thing'.
---
I'll offer a blanket alternative for state and federal taxation: no taxes on individuals, their income, or their property. Instead we tax exchange. States levy a 10% VAT on all transactions. Federal government levies taxes on interstate commerce, imports, and exports only.
All other forms of taxation are barred. New taxes may not be levied. If the state needs additional funds it may issue short or long term bonds accordingly.
Money printing is shifted away from being owned by an international banker's consortium, re-pinned to durable goods or precious metals.
Game_Ender 3 hours ago
Yes that is generally what you get down to: you can’t really own land free and clear in a populated area. You depend on the government in many ways to enforce property rights, as well provide services for that property and in return you have to pay for that.
It makes me uncomfortable too actually but I can’t see any alternative that does not get back to a similar spot or violence. In addition if we shifted to a land value tax, it would push taxes onto the very dense developed areas encouraging better use.
outside1234 3 hours ago
I would also like to not pay any capital gains on that property that rose in value.
simianwords 4 hours ago
Relevant article: The Median Voter is Maoist.
https://nicholasdecker.substack.com/p/the-median-voter-is-a-...
stogot 7 hours ago
> Thus, older voters who tend to have higher accumulated wealth, partly in the form of home equity, but also lower current income, are a politically powerful and sympathetic group in the push to reduce or eliminate property taxes.
Miss on two points: there are exemptions for retired that freeze prop tax and equity is wealth that’s rare to access before death
fortran77 8 hours ago
I think most normal people, including me, don't like it when housing costs are so out of step with everything else. The "value" in your primary residence isn't very useful, unless you sell and move to a more depressed area.
I'm a multi-homeowner and I'd love it if house prices fell, or at least stopped rising.
ssl-3 4 hours ago
> I'm a multi-homeowner and I'd love it if house prices fell, or at least stopped rising.
What does the phrase "Be the change you want to see" mean to you?
stego-tech 8 hours ago
This has been a sticking point for me for the better part of my adult life (~20 years now), and it all started with wondering who that dude in the taxi in “Airplane!” was: Howard Jarvis, one of the major proponents of California’s Proposition 13. From Wikipedia:
> The proposition adjusted the property tax rate, pegging it at 1% of the purchase price of the property.
That sent me down a rabbit hole of trying to understand why property taxes go down while home values go up, and why raising property taxes is so damn hard in so many states (it’s largely because of caps etched into law by Boomers in the 70s and 80s). It’s also why I have the strong opinions on the issue I hold today.
Tax displacement is a very real issue, but one that theoretically should be solved by a liquid property market where you can sell your home at FMV and downsize to another one you can afford. Americans, special creatures that we are, instead demanded we get the McMansions without the property tax valuations, while also deciding what housing gets built regardless of demand, while also keeping the distorted value of the home should we sell it for a retirement nest egg.
In other words: homeowners keep all the money, while paying decreasing to no taxes on it. This has been a significant contributor to the housing crisis of today, with shitbox properties in major cities selling for upwards of a million dollars but families pulling in not even a tenth of that in yearly income. The typical soundbite responses of “we need more housing” and “we need to reform or loosen regulations”, while technically correct, ignore the root incentive structure crafted back in the 70s with these sorts of inverse taxation schemes, and therefore leave the problem intact. We’d have to build so much housing, so quickly, that property values halve nationally for there to be any long-term fix to this problem, and nobody seems inclined to do this given the ponzi scheme we’ve discovered suburbia to be (just look at new developments in CA with dirt roads as an example of homeowners having to foot the bill and realizing it ain’t worth it given the thin density of suburbs).
And thus we arrive back at the beginning: we need to raise taxes on homes to reflect their high assessment values, which would displace existing homeowners who couldn’t afford said bill, which is leading to the same demographics as before demanding the same solutions as they enacted in the 70s and 80s: caps, limits, or shifting costs onto less-advantaged demographics (like renters via commercial real estate). As perverse as it sounds to most Americans, the actual solution is to finally let property taxes “float” with valuations in their entirety, no caps or cuts, and let the market sort it out. Will that lead to some folks becoming homeless? Yeah, and that’s a whole other ball of wax we’ve ignored dealing with precisely because we catered to homeowners as a political group, but that’s infinitely more solvable than trying to build our way out of a housing crisis engineered by lower taxes and controls on builds.
We gotta eat the pain up front to find a better collective tomorrow for everyone.
chasd00 3 hours ago
> We gotta eat the pain up front to find a better collective tomorrow for everyone
And by “we” you mean not you.
fuzzfactor 5 hours ago
In so many ways it helps to focus more deeply on the fundamentals.
For one thing, in the 1970's lots of true "baby boomers" were still too young to vote.
Maybe what you mean is old folks in general, they were the ones in California who were desperate enough to support the proposition which might be able to save their homes.
They should know, lots of them had been through The Great Depression, and were so much older than boomers they could be their grandparents, well they actually were if you do the math.
And they did the math, getting by just by the skin of their teeth while those just a little bit older who had been on a fixed income earlier had already been taxed out beyond recovery before the proposition.
They already ate the pain, I guess it's difficult to remember how up-front it was if you never spent that many years among Depression survivors.
Nobody ever wanted a depression again, and losing your home through no fault of your own was one of the most visible outcomes that ordinary people could do something about before it got out of hand.
This was supposed to be big, and it is bigger than ever, this is by design.
The problem comes from trying to work against it when the entire economic system surrounding "real estate" was supposed to evolve by now to where nobody pays more tax by now than the most proposition-protected properties.
The idea was for it not to end up making any difference as the years went by, nothing could be more fair than that.
The pearl-clutching comes from the failure of following generations to evolve away from taxing properties or wealth, with all levies eventually falling exclusively onto commerce instead so that only those who are actively making big transactions at the time are logically expected to be able to afford anything at all at the time.
Otherwise things are going to stay as medieval as they can, and the torture will continue until the attitude improves.
lincon127 2 hours ago
Lol
andrewclunn 8 hours ago
Well good news! Because taxes are there to pay for services, there's absolutely no reason why they should increase just because the value of your property... Oh that's not how local governments see it?
Well at least your property value will go up endlessly. No bubble there. Totally not based on speculation.
tzs 7 hours ago
> Because taxes are there to pay for services, there's absolutely no reason why they should increase just because the value of your property... Oh that's not how local governments see it?
Actually that often is how local governments see it in many places.
Local bond issues, which are paid for by property taxes, are often not a fixed rate. They are often a fixed amount (e.g., $2 million/year for 5 years) or a fixed initial amount with some growth allowed (e.g., $2 million/year for 5 years with inflation adjustments, often capped at some maximum adjustment).
With these each year the rate changes to keep the amount collected on target. If aggregate property values go up the rate goes down and if aggregate property values go down the rate goes up. If everyone's property values went up or down by the same percentage the amount of tax each person paid would stay the same.
Your share of the tax is proportional to your share of the aggregate property value, so our individual taxes can change regardless of any changes in aggregate value. For example if aggregate value goes up 5%, but your assessed value us up 10% and mine is up 3% your tax for a fixed amount bond will go up and mine will go down.
maxbond 8 hours ago
If the price of housing the rises, the cost of living will rise, employees will demand raises, and the cost of providing services will increase. Even if housing prices remain flat, there will be inflation leading to the same result.
But I agree that pinning all hopes of class mobility or comfortable retirement on perpetually increasing housing costs cannot work for very much longer.
s1artibartfast 8 hours ago
Sounds like a reason to peg to CPI, but not home value.
Also, economies can grow rather than just inflate
mikeyouse 8 hours ago
Why would government services not be subject to the same cost pressures due to inflation as the rest of society?
lokar 8 hours ago
Most of local and state gov expenditure is salaries (subject to inflation, particularly local housing) and financial support for low income residents (also tied to inflation and housing).
ThunderSizzle 8 hours ago
Because government is the reason for inflation.
The government should face a punishment for targeting constant inflation.
rozap 8 hours ago
lincon127 2 hours ago
lol
hndhyc0bdt 8 hours ago
Having sat on a county assessment appeal board, this is basically every hearing. People want the comps high when they sell and low when the notice arrives.
trelane 7 hours ago
Of course. Everyone wants the money they have to increase, the amount of services they receive increase or stay the same, and the money they pay to decrease or stay the same.
This isn't something special with taxes.
fsckboy 2 hours ago
in the case of many economic areas of life, you can increase your income and you can find better prices for things. What's special here is when those same people look at municipal governance and can't see that it's a zero sum game and they can't have both of what they want.
braiamp 3 hours ago
Another one of these. Lets see... they want the value of their house to go up but everyone elses down so they can trade up, the gain without the carrying cost any other investor pays, lower taxes because prices are high and the cut pushes prices higher so owners get the windfall and the next buyer eats it, schools and police but push the bill on commercial and rentals, renters pay it back in rent anyway
Fix is not complicated. Tax land not buildings, flat exemption under the primary residence off the local median so nobody proves income, defer the rest as a lien till sale for the cash poor
jgalt212 8 hours ago
I would like to work less hard, make more money, and date prettier girls than I currently do.
fuzzfactor 5 hours ago
Would highly recommend, will be doing it again soon :)
Piece of cake really, compared to getting lucky trying to lower taxes.
not my downvote btw