Let's Encrypt is adding two additional remote perspectives for domain validation (community.letsencrypt.org)
225 points by gslin 11 hours ago
nbadg 9 hours ago
For anyone else who didn't have "remote perspectives" in their personal technical lexicon: this refers to performing the ACME challenge/response check when validating the domain of a certificate signing request from multiple physical locations, and therefore via multiple physical network routes, in order to make network-level attacks more difficult.
For example, if you were validating example.com, you'd need to set up some response to the ACME challenge somewhere, either through direct DNS-based validation (DNS-01, DNS-PERSIST-01) or through a server running at the resolved A/AAAA IP address for example.com (HTTP-01, TLS-ALPN-01). In all cases, when a CA goes to validate your challenge response, it relies both upon DNS and upon the network integrity between the CA's datacenters and your DNS and/or app servers. Both of these can be subverted, eg via BGP attack, to allow an attacker to replace a DNS response, re-route the destination IP address to a different server, etc, at which point they can inject their own challenge response, and therefore issue their own (unauthorized) certificates.
Multi-perspective validation means that the CA validates your challenge response from multiple datacenters on different networks instead of just one, such that a hypothetical network attack would have to target multiple independent networks in order to successfully issue their unauthorized certificate.
More info:
https://letsencrypt.org/2020/02/19/multi-perspective-validat...
https://community.letsencrypt.org/t/multi-perspective-valida...
ratorx 7 hours ago
Being pedantic, the risk/benefit of remote perspectives are theoretical and dependent on the destination network also having multiple independent links. Otherwise any “uplink” ISPs are all SPoF regardless of anything Let’s Encrypt does because the traffic must traverse them to get to the destination.
But remote perspectives are still worth doing, Let’s Encrypt should not be the “less diverse” than the infrastructure of their typical certificate requestor.
muvlon 6 hours ago
Sure, if you can MitM the connection to a single-homed destination network, you can get Let's Encrypt to sign you certificates for things in that network, regardless of how many perspectives Let's Encrypt uses.
However, if you can MitM the uplinks at all of Let's Encrypt's perspectives, you can basically break the entire CA for everyone. Adding more perspectives reduces the risk of that.
dabraham1248 6 hours ago
Let's encrypt only offers DV certs. For DV, if you can successfully MitM every connection to a destination, then you _do_ own the domain. From [DigiCert](https://www.digicert.com/difference-between-dv-ov-and-ev-ssl...):
> Domain Validated (DV) certificates are the least-identity-validated SSL certificates and can be obtained quickly and easily—even by a malicious bot. These certificates are low-cost certificates that only require validation that a company or person can demonstrate control over a web domain for which they want to secure a certificate.
This is arguably a flaw in allowing DV certs at all, but given that it's there, LE doing this raises the bar for spoofing about as far as it can be raised.
dannyw 5 hours ago
kbolino 3 hours ago
mwwaters 5 hours ago
sandeepkd 5 hours ago
On the contrary I have personally seen the attacks and the impact. My understanding was that CAs are required to do that by spec and Let's Encrypt already does that.
The Use case - Lot of SAAS based products allow/require the administrators to prove the ownership of a domain via ACME methods. The administrators then are allowed to manage the profiles for users that have email address with same domains in the SAAS product.
Ironically the testing setup itself used the network hack for the successful ACME challenge
throw0101a 10 hours ago
In August an attacker was able to get a certificate issued even with multi-perspective validation:
> For 33 hours in late August, a rival network hijacked a block of Hetzner-hosted infrastructure serving Softaculous and Virtualizor, using it to issue a valid TLS certificate and push a malicious software update. The stolen route was RPKI-invalid the entire time, on file, checkable by anyone. It still won on most of the internet.
> At 20:57 UTC on 28 August, a network nobody at Hetzner or Softaculous had dealt with before started announcing 162.55.80.0/24 to the internet. It was a small, unremarkable-looking slice of Hetzner’s own address space — the block hosting Softaculous’s client area, its billing pages, and the update endpoint that every Virtualizor-licensed control panel on the internet periodically calls home to. For the next 33 hours, with an 11-hour lull in the middle, a meaningful share of global traffic bound for that block went to the hijacker instead. Some of it was Let’s Encrypt’s own domain-control validation, which is how the attacker walked away with a certificate for virtualizor.com that no browser would ever flag.
* https://cloudpunk.blog/post/bgp-hijack-rpki-gap/
So it's all very well to have multiple network locations to prevent hijacking on the path (i.e., you have to attack multiple paths), but if the network as a whole thinks the destination is someplace else then all those paths will lead to the same (false) location.
Perhaps the CAB should consider RPKI validation as a "MUST" rather than piling on multiple sources of validation who still have the same single point of failure (the spoofing of the destination).
toast0 7 hours ago
The hijacker effectively established control over the domain. That's a properly issued cert in my book. There's no part of a domain control cert issuance where the CA is expected to establish the identity of the domain owner or obtain their consent.
organsnyder 6 hours ago
That's not how it used to be, though. It used to be that you had to prove a much higher level of ownership, even for standard, non-"enhanced" certs. There was one time we discovered that the business hadn't had its articles of incorporation renewed in the state, and the validation process by the cert issuer caught it.
I do prefer the current model (the trade-offs are worth it, IMHO), but it wasn't always this way.
throw0101c 6 hours ago
tialaramex 5 hours ago
mopsi 6 hours ago
lb_ 4 hours ago
The route hijack was RPKI valid because they spoofed Hetzner's AS into the AS_PATH and Hetzner used a max length of /24 on the ROA (https://bgp.tools/rpki-history?cidr=162.55.0.0%2f16&asn=2494...).
I personally believe the real fix would be to incentivise the use of CAA records, ideally including the accounturi parameter.
cowlevel 8 hours ago
There's also the jabber.ru attack, the attacker physically intercepted the server's network cable and just issued themselves a cert.
woodruffw 9 hours ago
70% adoption doesn't seem high enough or it to be a mandatory component of validation[1], that seems like it would be very disruptive to nearly a third of the Internet.
[1]: https://ipinfo.io/blog/rpki-protects-70-internet-routes
traceroute66 4 hours ago
> RPKI validation as a "MUST" rather than piling on multiple sources of validation
And ASPA validation[1]
[1] https://blog.apnic.net/2026/07/09/aspa-at-apnic-strengthenin...
Lex-2008 9 hours ago
I think having multiple authoritative DNS servers in different networks might help with this.
I'm not sure how CAs deal with situations when a domain has several authoritative DNS servers, but not all of them respond with expected reply. Would it would be a good idea for CAs to ask *all* authoritative DNS servers and require a coherent answer from them?
throw0101c 8 hours ago
> I think having multiple authoritative DNS servers in different networks might help with this.
For the case of the dns-01 challenge type, sure. But if you're using http-01 (or the attacker asks for it), then all those DNS servers will answer back with the same IP address for the A(AAA) query and you're back to the hijacking scenario.
Lex-2008 7 hours ago
codedokode 6 hours ago
Ajedi32 7 hours ago
Yeah, checking from multiple perspectives is a good idea, but still ultimately a band-aid over the top of a flawed system. A properly engineered solution would need to ultimately come down to cryptographic proof of domain ownership (whether through DNSSEC, or something similar). Even RPKI still seems a little too indirect for my tastes (it fixes BGP attacks but potentially leaves the door open to other forms of domain hijacking).
Maybe in practice this is good enough, but the security nerd inside me rebels at how sloppy the whole thing feels.
tptacek 6 hours ago
A lot of practical security is, in effect, band-aids over flawed systems. But I think it's useful to remember that the WebPKI doesn't actually want arbitrary secure DNS; it wants proof of domain ownership. There are ways to deliver that without forklifting in an entire new non-transparent PKI, especially since literally the only thing it will be used for is proving domain ownership.
Ajedi32 4 hours ago
cowlevel 8 hours ago
RPKI is, unfortunately, dual purpose as a government censorship mechanism. It would be trivial for the government of the Netherlands (or the USA, which the Netherlands is subservient to) to compel RIPE NCC to stop publishing RPKI records for Russian networks, and if RPKI was mandatory when this happened, this would cut Russia off the internet.
Schlagbohrer 9 hours ago
It is wild to think that enabling HTTPS used to be difficult and expensive before Let's Encrypt came along in the wake of the Snowden revelations.
coldpie 9 hours ago
Remember Firesheep? It used to be the normal thing to use plain HTTP over open wifi networks. Literally anyone else on that access point could read your whole network session, cookies and all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firesheep
cowlevel 8 hours ago
Firesheep and Snowden are the confluence of factors that happened around the same time and led to the current near-universal use of HTTPS.
shim__ 7 hours ago
There was also an fun Android app which you could use to replace all YouTube videos with a different one
tcdent 5 hours ago
CSRs that seemed like they had to be handled and approved by humans, and thousands of dollars in fees. We have come a long way.
EvanAnderson 4 hours ago
> We have come a long way.
Except for all the legacy systems and embedded devices I have to deal with that have no certificate automation functionality and are still within their budgeted lifetimes. Those dumb things still require manual enrollment (or, at the very least, ugly one-off scripting to hand-puppet their stupidity) and the decreasing certificate lifetimes makes the problem that much more excruciating.
PurpleRamen 5 hours ago
Depending on the usecase, it's still difficult. Selfhosting can become really annoying because of this.
jandrese 3 hours ago
Normally I think LetsEncrypt made self hosting a lot easier, at least if you wanted to support HTTPS.
LetsEncrypt is what finally solved the problem with the previous systems were perfect was the enemy of the good. There used to be a lot of focus on trying to verify that the person getting the cert was who they said they are, but LetsEncrypt came and sad "that part isn't important, protecting the data is what really matters" and basically solved the real problem wholesale. Very few people inspect the certificates on every website they visit, so those protections were mostly useless and created a roadblock to widespread adoption of HTTPS, scoping the problem down to just making sure nobody can inspect or modify the data in transit made automation not only possible but easy.
DaSHacka 5 hours ago
Caddy and Tailscale can at least alleviate many of the issues and all-but make it automatic and painless (though both are more geared for homelab use). I agree nginx and the more standard webservers/services oftentimes don't have good support and require quite frankly too much manual configuration though. There's no excuse in 2026 for not including acme support OOTB with a single checkbox/config value. Plus, I can't believe the default ACME client is a snap (literally WHO wants this?) and not a simple static binary to help adoption/integration.
onionisafruit 9 hours ago
Before reading this I never considered Snowden could have been a motivator for Let’s Encrypt.
meuna 9 hours ago
Same. Fact checking on Wikipedia seems to indicate that the letsencrypt initiative predates Snowden revelations.
onionisafruit 9 hours ago
educar 9 hours ago
how are snowden and LE related?
iamnothere 9 hours ago
The Snowden revelations did help drive the push towards having HTTPS everywhere, particularly the findings about snooping on internal Google traffic, which seemingly made Google obsessive about HTTPS afterwards. But I don’t think they are directly related.
Vvector 9 hours ago
The Snowden revelations revealed just how vast the intercept of internet communications could be. There was already talk of needing HTTPS everywhere. Snowden's release got more support behind it, and brought the timeline forward.
throw0101c 8 hours ago
Tepix 9 hours ago
It's a shame that now, where S/MIME is a feature of pretty much every mail app, noone uses it outside of businesses. Opportunistic encryption between mail servers isn't good enough.
We really need a CA that does for mail what Let's encrypt has done for HTTP:
The CA needs to provider proper S/MIME certificates:
- free like Let's Encrypt
- duration of 1 year or longer and
- users generate their own keys
kbolino 3 hours ago
Why such a long lifetime?
If you could actually solve the deeper problem of the sender being able to find the correct certificate to use for the recipient(s), then the lifetime could and should be as short as possible, as in days not years. The recipient can decrypt the message forever, as long as they continue to possess the private key, even if the associated certificate expires. Short-lived certificates are the only effective mechanism for dealing with key theft and mis-issuance that works at scale.
betterunix2 6 hours ago
The problem with email encryption is not about CAs or verification of keys at all. The problem is key management and how encryption interferes with the common expectations that users have about email. In a corporate environment it is easier because the corporation itself can manage user keys and issue yubikeys etc., but for individual users there is no such support. It is also clunky to have to first receive someone's public key before you can send an encrypted message; for chat apps that is not a problem because chat is interactive and typically real-time, but with email there is no guarantee about interaction.
Those issues are partially addressed with "identity based encryption," but IBE always has a "backdoor" because there is a party that issues the users' private keys (and hence can always read a users' messages). On the other hand IBE does allow you to "just send" an email to someone because the public keys are just the "identities" (e.g. email addresses) combined with a single master public key. Key management is not as much of a problem because of how keys are generated. IBE does have some users, but as you said it is mostly business/organizational use.
nottorp 8 hours ago
> duration of 1 year or longer
Let's Encrypt is bringing the duration of certs down not up. I believe their goal is 30 minutes validity.
throw0101c 8 hours ago
> Let's Encrypt is bringing the duration of certs down not up. I believe their goal is 30 minutes validity.
This is mandated by the CA/Browser Forum, which, as the name implies, is related to browsers. It says nothing about e-mail clients. In its Extended Key Usage filed (RFC 5280 § 4.2.1.12) a certificate could not have server or client authentication, but have email protection as an allowed use.
Edit: there is an RFC for "Extensions to Automatic Certificate Management Environment for End-User S/MIME Certificates"
mixdup 4 hours ago
FiloSottile 7 hours ago
As far as I know 30 minutes validity is no one's goal, even long term.
The most aggressive plans (not Let's Encrypt's specifically) target 7 day validities.
nazcan 8 hours ago
Thoughts on why it hasn't been solved?
autoboy 7 hours ago
Just look above here, people still want to do cert reneval manually with long timespans. The most radical thing LE did was not to provide free certs, or even automated certs, but short-lived certs.
shim__ 7 hours ago
How would you verify the users real name ?
dgrabla 6 hours ago
Does anybody know if Let's Encrypt plans to support C2PA certificates?
superkuh 7 hours ago
What we really need form Lets Encrypt is stability and lack of change. But LE is just following the megacorps down the current TLS road. We're already down to only 30 day certs and on the second iteration of acme. Acme original protocol setups no longer work, they were broken by the dropping of support.
Addding new methods of validation does not help nearly so much as just supporting existing methods for more than a few years would. The race to the bottom will end up with an incredibly fragile system that breaks the moment automation does. Combine this with the trend towards HTTP-only and any given website will only have a lifetime of a couple years without direct human intervention. This is a drastic change from the status quo of websites simply lasting forever and being accessible till their webservers stop.
It is 100% a corporate-for-profit-only mindset and architecture. LE is not designing or accomidating human person goals and needs.
tancop 3 hours ago
You can set up a script that installs an updated web server next to the old one, tests it and switches the site to the new version. Run it on a timer every week or so. If any tests fail it either sends a message to you or tells a coding agent to fix it.
It's practically zero overhead, low maintenance (most updates are not breaking) and you get the latest version of everything. If you're worried about supply chain attacks set a minimum release age.