Fujifilm to boost tape production 5x as AI fuels archiving demand (arstechnica.com)
98 points by bookofjoe a day ago
dylan604 14 minutes ago
Anyone that's never had the (dis)pleasure of working with tapes, there's some gotchas to know about before archiving and forgetting about it.
When you create an archive, do not skip the step of reading it back. I'm not talking about just having the system confirm it is readable. I mean actually restoring the data from the tape. I've had tapes fail to retrieve data off of the tape even though the writing app confirmed it was readable.
Drives can have issues reading data written by another drive. Drives can have issues reading a tape it wrote itself.
Why write one when you can write two at twice the time/cost? In all of my experience with tape, I've never written just one tape. In the early days of DVDs, the images were written to LTO to send to have the discs pressed. Two were always sent on the chance one wasn't readable and schedules were so tight that the loss of a couple of days to send a new tape would wreck delivery dates. Another facility wrote three tapes: one kept on site, one sent to IronMountain, one sent to the client directly. Plenty of occasions saw the local copy unreadable and the IronMountain copy was retrieved. These were managed by large robotic tape libraries so each tape was written in a different drive at the same time so it was 3x cost while only 1x time.
Use the drive cleaning cassette as recommended. Your dirty heads can cause the data to not be written/read correctly depending on which head is dirty. If you're having issues reading, clean the heads before giving up on the tape. If you're having issues reading a tape just written, do not think someone else will be able to read it.
Ensure whoever might be using a tape you've written understands what was used to write the tape. Not all archivers are compatible. If you use the tar command to write to tape, people using a GUI app won't be able to read it.
rickdeckard 6 minutes ago
it's fascinating how the general direction became to never delete data. All the attempts of taking a photo, all the downloads of bank-statements, all the useless emails.
At some point in the future the amount of data being stored indiscriminately must consume such a huge amount of resources and cost, that it becomes a hidden fixed cost within a country's GDP, without any tangible benefit...
doughnutstracks an hour ago
I came across this website that provides LTO tape pricing references (I have no affiliation with the site).
LTO-10 30TB: $259–$300 per cartridge (~$8.63–$10/TB) LTO-10 40TB: $491–$555 per cartridge (~$12.28–$13.88/TB) LTO-9 18TB: $92–$129 per cartridge (~$5.14–$7.17/TB)
https://tapebackup.org/lto-tape-price-trend/lto10-price
One thing worth noting is that the tape cartridges themselves aren't necessarily the biggest expense. Standalone LTO-10 drives are currently listed at around $25,000.
throw0101c 13 minutes ago
> One thing worth noting is that the tape cartridges themselves aren't necessarily the biggest expense. Standalone LTO-10 drives are currently listed at around $25,000.
The drives are a fairly fixed CapEx: once they're purchased they don't cost must/anything to run. You may replace them every few years with newer tech for higher capacities of course.
Libraries/robotics last even longer, and can stick around for a decade or more once purchased.
RobotToaster 18 minutes ago
What makes the drives so expensive? Is it just the fact that they're still pretty niche?
rickdeckard 11 minutes ago
It's niche, yes. But also an incredibly high-precision mechanical device, designed for constant operation.
But the fact that -ALL- LTO drive-mechanisms are build by IBM maybe also doesn't help the pricing...
wslh an hour ago
Yes, drives are very expensive and that's why there is a business for renting them. Even Amazon Snowball offered that [1]. There are other rental services such as [2] but many of them are not LTO-10 yet (don't know if it really matters right now).
[1] https://docs.aws.amazon.com/snowball/latest/developer-guide/...
metadata 19 minutes ago
All the data AI vendors are slurping to surveil us needs to be stored for later, when they get enough compute to start taking advantage of it.
As time goes by, people are sending more and more. It started with just prompts, then the local source code, then calendar, emails, local files...
drdexebtjl an hour ago
Surely it’s AI, and not archive-now-decrypt-later attacks, right?
cromka 44 minutes ago
"Fujifilm highlights the ability to air-gap tape cartridges as a last defense for user data: “Given the sophistication of cyberattacks, magnetic tape is attracting increasing attention as a means of protecting data from threats such as ransomware.”"
I mean, it's plausible, yet I find it hard to believe this solely drives demand 5 times. Because if it does then what, companies were not using cold storage backups before?
throw0101c 4 minutes ago
> I mean, it's plausible, yet I find it hard to believe this solely drives demand 5 times. Because if it does then what, companies were not using cold storage backups before?
As someone in HPC: people never delete stuff. It can stick around forever, and so if more bits are generated, there are more bits that people don't want to delete "just in case". Depending on the organization, quota enforcement can be tighter or looser.
HSM is fairly popular in the HPC space for this reason:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchical_storage_managemen...
Your newest/hottest bits are on NVMe, anything older than (e.g.) 3 months gets move to SSD, anything older than that to spinning rust HDDs, and then to tape.
There are several file systems where this happens in the background: the file still shows up at /path/for/stuff/foo.txt but the contents are shuffled about behind the scenes.
Maxion 5 minutes ago
I suspect very very few companies have cold storage backups.
otabdeveloper4 29 minutes ago
Datacenters being blown up by drones and rockets in kinetic war is probably what drives demand, not "AI".
lp92 24 minutes ago
wslh 38 minutes ago
> Because if it does then what, companies were not using cold storage backups before?
What I observed in the rising cybersecurity attacks happening around me:
(i) There are organizations thinking that they have [complete] backups and being aware they don't once the cyberattack if effective.
(ii) Even in organizations with complete backups they don't have a [good] process to recover them, and the operations suffered a lot.
Corollary: backups are, in general, not battle tested.
rickdeckard 20 minutes ago
dzink 42 minutes ago
BluRay M-Disks are cheaper and more resistant to humidity / heat.
adrian_b 15 minutes ago
I wish that were true.
Alas, M-Disks are hugely more expensive than magnetic tapes, even when not taking into account their much greater volume.
The biggest M-Disks are of 100 GB and the cheapest that I see on Amazon (in 25-piece sets) are at about $9 without taxes and shipping. At that price, I can buy not 0.1 TB, but 2 TB of magnetic tapes, which also have a much lower volume, at 18 TB per tape for the older and cheaper LTO-9 cartridges. I can easily carry with me a suitcase with 360 TB of data (20 LTO-9 cartridges), or store it in a safe place. Carrying 3600 M-Disks or storing them in my home would be impossible.
M-Disks may be used only to archive some small amounts of more valuable data, e.g. documents or programs that you have written yourself, a few scanned legal documents, a few more important books, a small amount of music that you prefer, a few family photographs.
For bulk data, if you cannot afford the cost of tape drives, the only alternative is HDDs, but with HDDs you must take care to always use both duplicate HDDs and archive files with redundancy, which allow the regeneration of their content when any not too large part of the file becomes corrupted. You must also take care to migrate the data periodically to new HDDs, after a few years.
Due to their small size I have not tried to use M-Disks until now, so I do not know if my older Blu-ray recorder can write them. There is also the problem that the availability in the future of Blu-ray recorders and readers is uncertain.
orlp 37 minutes ago
From prices I can see it's 10-20x more expensive than tape archives.
bluGill 14 minutes ago
Only if you are filling the tapes. For the average person bluray is much cheaper since they don't have much data.
folmar 2 minutes ago
jefftk 8 minutes ago
M-Disks are not cheaper than tape for bulk data storage. Once you're doing enough of this that you're not limited by the cost of the drives, it's about a factor of 25: $150/TB for M-disk vs $6/TB for tape.
theandrewbailey 35 minutes ago
Bluray is cheaper per unit, but not per terabyte.
tokai 25 minutes ago
But will there be any bluray drives available in the future?
sneak 14 minutes ago
Still an open question: How does S3 Glacier Deep Archive do it? Tape has been theorized but I’ve also heard arguments for very slow flash…
pjc50 27 minutes ago
The cost of backing up slop gets added to the cost of generating it in the first place, I suppose.
classified 26 minutes ago
I would have thought this is for archiving pre-slop-era data, but archiving slop might be archaeologically interesting too.
rickdeckard 18 minutes ago
I don't understand, why don't these companies backup their data into the cloud? /s
That's what they keep telling everyone else for years now...
dylan604 11 minutes ago
and what do the cloud providers use to back it up? it there a cloud for the cloud? we're close to an Inception like multiple levels of cloud