Uranium cubes reveal why the German nuclear project failed (arstechnica.com)

175 points by rbanffy 3 days ago

leonidasrup 17 hours ago

Boron contamination of graphite also slowed the Manhattan Project:

" Fermi writes that "The results of this experiment was [sic] somewhat discouraging" presumably because of the absorption of neutrons by some unknown impurity. So, in December 1940 Fermi and Szilard met with Herbert G. MacPherson and V. C. Hamister at National Carbon to discuss the possible existence of impurities in graphite. During this conversation it became clear that minute quantities of boron impurities were the source of the problem. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_graphite

qnleigh 12 hours ago

This is why the German's used heavy water instead of graphite as a neutron moderator, which made it much harder to build a reactor. Their early reactors consisted of concentric spheres of heavy water and uranium powder. This was an unfortunate combination, as uranium powder ignites on contact with water. Leaks caused explosions on two separate occasions [0].

In contrast, the first allied nuclear reactor was a literal pile of uranium and graphite on a squash court.

[0] The Bastard Brigade (great book on all of this)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Pile-1

stymaar 9 hours ago

> uranium powder. This was an unfortunate combination, as uranium powder ignites on contact with water.

Why did they use metallic uranium instead of the stable oxide?

Kubuxu 5 hours ago

44mkultra69 4 hours ago

> This is why the German's used heavy water instead of graphite as a neutron moderator

Were there other approaches discussed or used in Germany around the time?

pfdietz 2 hours ago

fortran77 30 minutes ago

> This was an unfortunate combination, as uranium powder ignites on contact with water. Leaks caused explosions on two separate occasions

This was a _fortunate_ combination, the way I see it.

schiffern 16 hours ago

Sounds like a good time travel story: the mission is to go back in time and plant a single uranium cube, to be found ~80 years hence, to convince people that the German bomb project was doomed so that– ahh, but let's not spoil it! :)

whycome 2 hours ago

This is where AI kinda has a role. Built on all the sci fi tropes of years past. You can give it a seed and an ending and get it to write the evening’s entertainment.

barrenko 3 hours ago

Never ever do I read enough about the blame Europe had in all of this due to it's procrastinating to deal with Hitler / Germany on time.

Happening again with Russia.

amanaplanacanal 24 minutes ago

TomJansen 15 hours ago

So that WW2 had to go on for an extra 2/3 years?

xbmcuser 12 hours ago

somenameforme 12 hours ago

thisisauserid 3 days ago

This is central to the plot of D: Heavy Water, Neal Stephenson's second installment of the Bomb Light Trilogy.

abcd_f 6 hours ago

Can it be read standalone or it needs the first book?

arethuza 5 hours ago

I'd recommend reading the first book before D.

the__alchemist 16 hours ago

Holy shit this is out? I went to the book tour for Polostan. Ordered; ty!

mjmvisser 15 hours ago

Enjoy, it’s riveting!

mauvehaus 15 hours ago

Since Norsk Hydro was mentioned in the article, I have to mention in turn one of my favorite books ever: The Winter Fortress by Neil Bascomb. It's the true story of the Norwegian commando sabotage of the heavy water plant. Short version: after a failed attempt by the English, some locals who'd fled to England and received training parachuted in, blew it up, and then skied to neutral Sweden. Legends, the lot of them: they froze their balls off and didn't have enough to eat, but they pulled it off.

Every time I re-read it, it makes me want to take up nordic skiing. It is absolutely up there on my list of greatest true stories ever told with Touching the Void, The Emerald Mile, and a select few others.

https://www.abebooks.com/Winter-Fortress-Epic-Mission-Sabota...

rjsw 14 hours ago

One of the Operation Gunnerside members was later part of the Kon-Tiki Expedition [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki_expedition

mnw21cam 7 hours ago

Also the 1965 film "The Heroes of Telemark", the documentary "The Real Heroes of Telemark" by Ray Mears, and his book of the same name.

1123581321 13 hours ago

That looks good; thanks. Growing up, I loved the firsthand account published in the 80s. Probably mentioned as a source in this newer book. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/100634.Skis_Against_the_...

mauvehaus 13 hours ago

I am so excited to read this; thank you! I've reread The Winter Fortress every year or two since the first time.

qnleigh 12 hours ago

This story is also covered in The Bastard Brigade, which details many other Allied attempts to sabotage the Germany nuclear program. Fun fact: Heisenberg was close to being assassinated by a famous baseball player (Mo Berg). Very entertaining and interesting book.

hunterpayne 11 hours ago

There's a movie about that which focuses on Berg who was a pretty impressive person. He was a MLB player at a time when that was the biggest sport in the US but the players made next to nothing. He also spoke 10 languages fluently and spent most of the war translating intelligence intercepts. Supposedly he found Heisenberg but judged that he wasn't a threat and so didn't kill him. That's the story anyway, no idea how true that is.

mk_stjames 11 hours ago

Little extra fun fact since Norsk Hydro was mentioned in the article and now you've mentioned it again-

Norsk Hydro was founded as a hydro power plant + nitrogen fertilizer production company (the nitrogen production needing lots of electricity, and the hydro plant to provide said energy...) but around WWII, pivoted to light metals, and built aluminum and magnesium factories with German company IG Farben, in order to support them in the war, as they were partially under Nazi occupation by then. That all went south but then after the war they kept on with the aluminum business.

The company went on to become experts in aluminum extrusions, and were then contracted not just for the base metal but also to manufacture the first bonded aluminum bare chassis for the S1 Lotus Elise in 1995, which went on to be the basis for the Tesla Roadster.

testing22321 14 hours ago

Nordic skiing is great.

As a snowboarder I was reluctant, but got into it a few years ago. We pull our young daughter in a chariot with skis about 10km into a little cabin by a river with a wood stove.

Cheese, salami and hot chocolate and we make the return loop. Three evenings a week all winter long is a great way to spend time outside.

raldi 14 hours ago

Clickbait antidote: The cubes revealed only that the uranium was a bit less dense than textbook values because of tiny internal voids.

That measurement fed a computer model, but if I'm reading the article right, most of the work was actually based on wartime records on heavy water and graphite. Anyway, the model showed they would have needed twice the uranium and heavy water they actually had.

hunterpayne 11 hours ago

It should be noted that they didn't have the supplies for the design they tried. There were designs that could have worked with what they had. And its unlikely that during the war anyone knew exactly which designs the Germans tried and even less chance that someone would have known if a specific novel design would have worked. Its an interesting detail but largely irrelevant.

Its also suspected Heisenberg didn't want the design to work (its the given reason why he wasn't killed by Berg). But it was still a reasonable possibility during the war that the Germans could have made it work.

Crunchified 14 hours ago

IIRC, US Colonel Hogan got Luftwaffe Colonel Klink to drink a bunch of that heavy water as a cure for baldness as a truckful of it transited through Stalag 13.

Phew, that underground mission was more important than I thought!

gcanyon an hour ago

The obvious question to me is whether Heisenberg got it wrong on purpose.

mannyv 10 hours ago

Anyone interested in the bomb should read 'And the Devil Reached Towards the Sky, an oral history of the atomic bomb.'

It's full of fun anecdotes and asides...like when they 'found' tuns of uranium ore in NY...or the aforementioned acquisition of silver from Treasury.

There are classic bureaucratic things...like when they issued a check for millions and specified 'no questions asked.' Then the guy called with questions. Or how Groves' people and Treasury tried to figure out how many ounces were in a ton.

leonidasrup 9 hours ago

Also very good reading on this subject is "The Making of the Atomic Bomb", by "Richard Rhodes".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Making_of_the_Atomic_Bomb

Beijinger 14 hours ago

"As the German scientists were racing against time,"

The Germans tried to build a reactor, not a bomb, or am I wrong?

beloch 13 hours ago

Building a reactor was a step on the way to building a bomb.

Two isotopes were used for fission bombs in WWII: Uranium 235 and Plutonium. More than 99% of naturally occurring Uranium is Uranium 238, which will not sustain a chain reaction necessary for a bomb. There are only trace amounts of Plutonium in nature, but it can be produced in reactors that use U238 for fuel. So, to make a fission bomb you need to either separate U235 from U238 or build a reactor to create Plutonium.

It's worth noting that the shortage of heavy water was no accident. The Allies sabotaged the heavy water production facility in Norway that Germany relied on[1].

________________________

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_heavy_water_sabotage

hunterpayne 11 hours ago

Nitpick. You can't power a reactor with U-238. You breed U-238 into Pu-239 and that can power a reactor.

alcover 7 hours ago

jojobas 8 hours ago

It was the first step out of 1000 to make. It took both US and USSR more than 2 years from a working reactor to a working bomb, all away from bombing raids. Reactors used to make bomb plutonium were a lot larger and more powerful than these first research ones, and Germany was nowhere near the required scale.

Germans also didn't have anything resembling a workable bomb design.

rjsw 14 hours ago

The US built a reactor first too [1], followed by others [2] as part of the Manhattan Project.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Pile-1 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site

defrost 13 hours ago

In the context of the time, those US scientists that built a reactor were all in for nuclear energy and absolutely 100% did not think that a nuclear weapon was economically feasible.

"Economically feasible" meaning maybe, perhaps, theoretically possible but even if so astronomically expensive in time, money, and physical resources.

It took the UK/CA/AU Tube Alloys group to find ways to make a weapon more practical, and multiple letters, attempts, and a one on one press the flesh tour to convince the US nuclear types that a weapon was both possible and achievable.

bluGill 13 hours ago

chasil 13 hours ago

AndrewKemendo 17 hours ago

Awesome article and interesting to see Heisenberg get it wrong. It really was a perfect situation for the US because we could get all the radioactive material with little issue.

A clean reminder that logistics is everything.

Also cool that the author is married to Sean Carroll.

failbuffer 14 hours ago

It mega-helped that Edgar Sengier saw the importance of uranium ore and shipped 1200 tons of it out of the Congo to New York before the U.S. government even realized it would need it.

1970-01-01 14 hours ago

We always knew they weren't close because Moe Berg was going to shoot Heisenberg during his lectures in Zurich if he suspected they were.

mmooss 16 hours ago

Relatively recently, recordings were released of conversations between captured Nazi scientists held at a house in the UK (I think I saw it on HN). They were housed together and the house was bugged purposely to capture casual conversation for intelligence purposes.

IIRC one conclusion they/some of the scientists drew was that the culture of the Nazi regime - the paranoia, fear, and violence - made a project on that scale impossible. Enough talented, high-ego people could not work together on project that large and demanding.

Also, IIRC, when the Hiroshima bomb was announced, many couldn't believe it. They had been working on a power generation reactor as a first step - though I'm not sure the OP fits that story?

Also, maybe Heisenberg didn't want to succeed? Has that ever been resolved to some degree?

Steve44 5 hours ago

The transcripts from that bugged house were turned into a play, we saw it in Richmond, London, a few years ago. It was really well done and seemed to by enjoyed by everyone, not just those interested in the science & its history.

https://www.whatsonstage.com/shows/outer-london-theatre/farm...

ZnerflBerp 16 hours ago

The sheer economic costs of the manhattan project were prohibitive to a nation like Germany, even if they'd managed to build a functional project team.

(how many nations had 14,700 tons of silver lying around)

fooker 15 hours ago

A nation like Germany on the cusp of losing a war sure. The opposite scenario of Germany controlling all the resources of Europe and Africa is a scary proposition.

ZnerflBerp 2 hours ago

jcranmer 14 hours ago

dboreham 15 hours ago

I don't believe the silver was strictly necessary. Copper windings would have worked for the calutron. Silver was used because copper was not as easily available at the time. But the point is valid. The project was originally British, moved to the US for economic reasons.

throwaway81523 15 hours ago

The silver bus bars in the magnetic separators were kind of a stunt, if that's what you're thinking of.

jcranmer 15 hours ago

> Also, maybe Heisenberg didn't want to succeed? Has that ever been resolved to some degree?

From the Farm Hall transcripts, it seems that Heisenberg was "happy" to have been working on a reactor and not a bomb, but from context, this seems less like an objection to the principle of working on a weapon and more like gratitude that the Allies couldn't hang him for working on an atomic bomb. Recall that the conversations took place after Germany had been utterly defeated and the scientists were prisoners at the mercy of the British--prisoners in a gilded cage, but prisoners nonetheless.

Lum2 an hour ago

« more like gratitude that the Allies couldn't hang him for working on an atomic bomb »

Why would they have done that? Hadn't they themselves been "working on an atomic bomb"?

Wernher von Braun wasn't hanged either although he'd been working on a "device" that actually ended up working. He was even "invited" to continue his work in the USA, bringing along his entire team.

kragen 16 hours ago

> one conclusion they/some of the scientists drew was that the culture of the Nazi regime - the paranoia, fear, and violence - made a project on that scale impossible

This makes me think about the pervasive classification and paranoia in the "defense" contractors supporting the US Department of "Defense". Any information that's classified, even at the lowest "confidential" level, is only provided on a "need-to-know" basis. And unclassified projects are sort of looked down on, so there's a perverse incentive to classify more than necessary. This "secretive, isolationist approach" seems like it probably prevents a lot of groups from "sharing information or resources", in the article's words (though it concludes that wasn't the biggest problem facing the German effort).

When sharing classified information that someone might not need to know might be a crime, and might get your clearance pulled even if it's not, the incentives run strongly counter to sharing information. Consequently, I confidently claim that there are very, very few people in a position to serendipitously make significant discoveries that involve combining two or three different classified facts.

(I don't actually know this, because I don't know any classified facts.)

Maybe this is part of the sclerosis that causes the US defense-industrial complex to "basically produce useless junk", in the words of Les Earnest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ych6pvLMKCU), and which prompts Sergey Tovkach to say, "There isn’t a single Western drone that’s proven itself effective in this conflict." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmfNUM2CbbM). Maybe that's why Russian propaganda in 02024 reported that Ukraine had to withdraw the USA-made M1A1 tanks far from the front (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCIN-t3VxJ0).

mmooss 12 hours ago

Not to take away from your comment, but to clarify: That's not the paranoia the Nazi scientists meant. They meant fear of the SS, being spied on, being stabbed in the back by a co-worker in a power struggle, fear for the families, etc.

Lum2 32 minutes ago

kragen 10 hours ago

brians 15 hours ago

Or look at it the other way: having seen what assembled scientists can do, we separated them, gave them an Orwellian environment, and slept easy.

See Anathem for more on this.

insom 13 hours ago

codedokode 12 hours ago

Why famous scientists supported Nazi regime? Aren't scientists supposed to be smart?

kakacik 7 hours ago

Smart people still work for trump regime. Lets put it this way - it won't be viewed kindly by history neither. Yet it keeps happening, people have various priorities and high intelligence doesn't guarantee high morals. musk keeps doing nazi gestures and behavior and clearly his values are not far neither, yet he is supposedly smart and definitely doesn't have to behave that way, its a personal choice.

Also, a lot of people are trivial to manipulate and have emotional weaknesses that are easy to abuse by skilled manipulators, smart or not.

2b3a51 4 hours ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ettore_Majorana

Majorana basically disappeared in 1938. It has been suggested that he could see the feasibility of weapons using fission (Leonardo Sciascia wrote a play about this). Opinions vary and the issue is cloudy and ripe for fiction.

kakacik 3 hours ago

russdill 9 hours ago

The Vintage Space has an excellent video that does talk a fair bit about individually scientists feelings toward the Nazi regime

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGvS4T-r_fk

Aachen 3 hours ago

Without agreeing with the stereotype that scientists are supposed to be smart¹, yeah this is something that worries me. Be it naziism, slavery, racism the way that it was considered normal and legal when my grandparents were alive: there are so many things about which I wonder how large groups (not just a few outliers) can be convinced to believe it.

How do I know what I'm doing in life is right? By what mechanism could I ensure that I believe someone who tells me that Jews aren't the cause of all evil if I lived in ~1940 Germany? What makes people increasingly vote for racist parties since covid? The average person hasn't gotten any smarter or dumber in many thousands of years; evolution is not that fast. At best, genes might be expressed differently based on environmental factors, but I'm not aware that this is a factor for the aforementioned inhumane beliefs. How "scientists" (or anyone) could believe this is a really good question, sadly

Of course, this is ignoring the group that did fight against the nazi regime and/or beliefs. This is just about the (sufficiently large) group that could be convinced to work towards inhumane treatment or even genocide

¹ we can all do amazing things when we have the right idea in the right situation with the means to execute it. Of course, good ideas occur to a smarter person more frequently, and they might be inclined to become scientists because it's an environment seemingly meant for working on new ideas, but that doesn't mean everyone there is per se smart. Lots of people are only topically smart (not to be confused with topical knowledge: I scored both top % and bottom % depending on which part of the iq test you looked at, so that's not about knowledge but about abilities. Many people think I'm smart, but I think they mainly notice the parts where I'm unusually good rather than the 'boring' parts where I perform normally or below average, or they attribute it to laziness)