Minnesota guitarist's "palmfrets" invention strikes a new chord (echopress.com)

118 points by bookofjoe 9 hours ago

adzm 8 hours ago

Not a single photo of the palmfrets in the article, wow. Closest you get is a hand covering the entire device.

https://palmfrets.com/

I was much more interested once I saw the actual website.

Long story short, it's basically a fret at the bridge end of the guitar, so using it will bring the 'root' note of the bass strings up a semitone or few.

I can see this being pretty useful for drones when fingerpicking. Though combining this with normal frets on the top string will necessarily be inaccurate because it shortens the string length, so the normal frets will be slightly misplaced.

dofm 7 hours ago

Yeah — I don't really see how it can work except on the bass strings (played open).

This is a novel but slightly peculiar take on this problem. But there are lots of other things, right?

Listing for others since I suspect you know: all of this scheming about live-manipulating the basic tuning of an electric guitar dates back to the Parsons-White stringbender (and arguably further, since that was a way to get pedal steel sounds), which has led to stuff like the Duesenberg Multibender, the really extraordinary MayTrem (which keeps all strings in relative tune as the pitch is bent), the amazing Hipshot Doubleshot which lets you tune a guitar or dobro in two separate open tunings and switch between them instantaneously with a lever, etc.

Ed Gerhard added single-string frets to the bass side of his weissenborn (acoustic lap steel) that he can play with the fingers behind his slide or (incredibly) with his thumb.

All of these things are sort of fiddling at the edge of the question of a musical instrument, which is: should you confound their constraints or work within them? It's a bit like the thing about whether a dulcimer should be diatonic, whether you should add just the frets you need, whether it should be chromatic, whether it should have removable frets, etc. etc.

As a sort of hobbyist lap steel player I find all these things fascinating, but I think the ultimate question is — where do you draw the line? There are lots of things I can't play on a six-string lap steel, but should I change the instrument so I can, or should I accept the role the instrument plays, and play the things I can?

Another way to look at it is: why is the Harpejji niche? Why isn't everyone playing the Linnstrument? Why don't all pianists play the ROLI Seaboard?

cortesoft 7 hours ago

> All of these things are sort of fiddling at the edge of the question of a musical instrument, which is: should you confound their constraints or work within them?

I feel like this is no different than asking “what style of music should I play?”

The answer is whatever you are drawn to as an artist. What interests you more?

I hope some people work within the constraints of an instrument, and some people change the instrument. I love that there are people who make music with household items, and I love people who faithfully play instruments unchanged in design for thousands of years.

All of the options provide plenty of outlets for creativity, and I love that there are people who want to explore different ones, and share the results with the rest of us. Sometimes one of those modifications invents a new instrument that captures the heart of millions and will proliferate for decades, and sometimes someone finds a new way to play an old instrument that opens the eyes of everyone to the possibilities that were always there.

dofm 6 hours ago

shermantanktop 6 hours ago

breezybottom 2 hours ago

ksymph 7 hours ago

I don't see why you need to draw a line anywhere. Change your instruments however much or little as you want; do whatever gives you the greatest enjoyment / practicality / sound you're looking for, or whatever else your reasons for making music might be. Or skip the music making entirely and just play around with hardware if that's your thing.

dofm 7 hours ago

ryukoposting 7 hours ago

> where do you draw the line?

Isn't music better for the fact that every artist can draw their own line?

> Why isn't everyone playing the Linnstrument?

Counterargument: does someone play the Linnstrument? Do they make good music with it?

dofm 7 hours ago

breezybottom 2 hours ago

ses1984 7 hours ago

Play what inspires you to play.

Invent what you are inspired to invent.

dofm 7 hours ago

recursive 2 hours ago

Why do we all use QWERTY?

dofm 16 minutes ago

jasonwatkinspdx 5 hours ago

Yeah, I really dislike it when writers use stalling as a tactic.

xhevahir 5 hours ago

I don't think she's stalling. It's a story about a local person in a small-town publication; more readers will be interested in the "local boy does good" aspect of it than the invention itself.

KerrAvon 7 hours ago

The angle of the wrist on the front page makes me wonder about RSI.

TheRealPomax 6 hours ago

Then the article did its job, driving you to the actual website.

boulos 6 hours ago

The last part of the first video makes it more clear: you're basically your own bass backing player with one or two notes. I see why he trademarked "palmbass" as another term.

pazimzadeh 41 minutes ago

which is exactly the role of the thumb in classical guitar

so this is solving the fact that using a guitar pick forces you not to use your thumb

mattmaroon 5 minutes ago

I’ve not played classical guitar but on a standard electric guitar I just don’t have the finger length to fret the low e and the higher notes at the same time, and I don’t have freakishly short hands either. So it can help with that, pick or not.

altern8 2 hours ago

Here's a demo that actually shows what this is about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS7hF4S9rlw

dimovich 2 hours ago

A little offtopic, but if you tune the D string down one semitone, the chords start to sound evil. Sometimes it's helpful when trying to find new interesting chords to a song.

Someone 8 hours ago

rootedbox an hour ago

For people with small hands who can't reach.

jfaulken 6 hours ago

Does anyone else hear the French name for french fries?

shermantanktop 6 hours ago

i do now!

itomato 4 hours ago

I thought that was the joke.

indymike 2 hours ago

This is quite cool. Going try to make a partscaster with a bad imitation of this :-)

velcrovan 3 hours ago

If you want more Minnesota guitar innovation, look up Leo Kottke

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJNq5YqZ3EI

stickfigure 2 hours ago

Yes! And every time I hear Kottke mentioned, I cannot resist sharing this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La-QiWzwgOM

Leo Kottke, Doc Watson, and Chet Atkins playing Last Steam Engine Train together.

grimgrin 2 hours ago

wow, instantly brought me back to the film "Days of Heaven", and then discovered that is the correct thought. never thought to check who did the music, but I love the movie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Days_of_Heaven

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBgwuM11q0o

hmokiguess an hour ago

Please add a B bender to it and it will be the best thing ever.

trgn 6 hours ago

reminds me of something, i love this sort of thing, for the same reason i like chet atkins merl travis thumb technique. it allows you to play multiple parts of the harmony, suddenly music sounds much more rich. and it will fall in exactly the same trap. these advanced mechanics will heavily inform the style you can play, and not find it transferable easy to other genres, or ensemble playing.

in that way, i find piano still the main multi-string instrument where its technique is genre-agnostic.

random stuff on a friday fwiw.

bookofjoe 9 hours ago

temporallobe 21 minutes ago

Thanks. This site has an aggressively annoying paywall.

rootedbox an hour ago

for people with small hands who can't reach..

defart 7 hours ago

Not sure what benefit this gives you at all, since (for me at least) id rather be able to 'unlock' extra tones deeper than the open string. Being able to do 3 frets on the reverse side of the guitar doesn't bring that much.

Especially doesnt bring much that couldn't be achieved with an alternate tuning.

Nothing against it, it just seems a pretty contrived invention.

tyrust 2 hours ago

> rather be able to 'unlock' extra tones deeper than the open string

Doesn't down-tuning and then using one of these accomplish that?

deckar01 6 hours ago

I use some chord fingerings that leave the low E and A strings open and form the rest of the chord with the D, G, and B strings. Chords with intervals that start in the second octave sound really dreamy and are easy to play. There is no way to extend that to more than two bass notes without something like this. Four bass notes open up much more interesting chord progressions.

hateful 4 hours ago

"But it goes up to G" "Can't you just CAPO the third fret?" "...it goes up to G"

Not to discredit the invention, it's very cool indeed.

alexjplant 8 hours ago

The Steinberger TransTrem [1] similarly allows changing pitch at the bridge. Buck Dharma and EVH used it to great effect. It's about as simple as a design as it can be but calibrating it is a process and guitarists aren't exactly a group known for their engineering prowess or progressive thinking (compared to bassists or keys players, for instance) so it never achieved critical mass. This seems like an even simpler system so perhaps it'll gain greater traction.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransTrem

threetonesun 4 hours ago

TransTrem doesn't allow for single string pitch changes though, it's more of a solution to easy alternate tunings when you have a whammy bar.

A simpler solution is probably using a crossover or synth-pickup so you can split the bass notes to a pitch-shift pedal.

tashi 7 hours ago

It could open up new possibilities for the right musicians, I think, the way Stevie Wonder can do so much more with his chromatic harmonica. I'm a little worried about changing the ergonomics of an instrument that's already trying to destroy your hands if you play it just a little bit wrong for enough hours, but time will tell.

rc5150 5 hours ago

"instrument that's already trying to destroy your hands if you play it just a little bit wrong"

that's not the fault of the instrument, that's your fault.

xcf_seetan 8 hours ago

He had to remove the bridge pickup... no good for me.

bryanlarsen 7 hours ago

There is a less capable model (unifret) that doesn't require moving the pickups or adding much dampening to the soundboard.

dfxm12 4 hours ago

All the frets past 18, too.

maxwells-daemon 6 hours ago

I wonder if you could make a quarter-tone palmfret to let you play microtones on a standard fretboard, or does the intonation not work out like that?

joshlemer 6 hours ago

It couldn't add a quarter tone between each semitone on the guitar, it looks like it's just duplicating the lowest 2 or 3 frets on the bridge side.

maxwells-daemon 6 hours ago

Right, but I'm thinking if you added a quarter-tone fret on the palm side, if you hold that down and also fret a different note, you'd get a string shortened to one quarter-tone above the fretted note, right?

npostavs 5 hours ago

sollewitt 8 hours ago

Undjentlemanly

afpx 7 hours ago

I’m just a beginner player, but what are the pros / cons of this vs those quick-change capo things?

marpstar 7 hours ago

this shortens the string from both sides and gives the player the ability to engage/disengage as part of their right-hand playing.

Because of the way intonation works in string instruments (e.g. by fine-tuning the saddle of the bridge on electric guitars/basses), I think that you'd be able to have this set up to work well in a few playing positions, but just as the frets get smaller as you go higher up the neck (because of the way pitch works on a shortened string) I'd expect the intonation to get out of whack in other spots on the neck.

bryanlarsen 3 hours ago

You'd be out of tune if you used both a palm fret and a neck fret at the same time on the same string. But I doubt that you'd ever want to do that. The palm fret only moves 1-3 semitones, which if you're already putting a finger on that string, it's almost always going to be easier to move the finger a fret or three than to use both the palm and the finger.

dfxm12 4 hours ago

They do different things. This like, instead of playing an F and a G on the low E string by fretting the first & third fret with your fretting hand, you can "fret" it with your strumming hand, which would free your fretting hand for the other strings around the 12th fret. This, in a way, lets you play a bass line and high melody without moving all over the fretboard wildly. The video on palmfrets.com shows this more clearly.

As a beginner player, this isn't worth worrying about, IMO. It might unlock some interesting composition options for someone writing a song for themselves... Normally, you have a bassist playing those parts for you, though.

globular-toast 8 hours ago

Oooh. I play acoustic. Apparently it's not quite as good because you don't want to mess with the acoustics of the instrument, but being able to get just one more bass note on each string would open up a ton of new possibilities...

rc5150 8 hours ago

Yeah this isn't the game changer he thinks its going to be. Real e-bow energy here.

Really having a hard time seeing any major manufacturer licensing the design and using it on any of their instruments.

lightedman 3 hours ago

Especially when 8,9, and 10-string guitars exist.

bena 8 hours ago

Like, neat, but I wonder what it really gets you.

A guitar has a lot of duplicated notes. The lowest 5 notes of the low E string are unique and the highest 5 of the high E for a guitar in standard tuning.

Standard tuning is EADGBe. Every fret is a half tone. So on the low E string it goes, from open E->F->F#/Gb->G->G#/Ab->A. That A is the same A as the second open string. This is how guitars are tuned to themselves, you can play the fifth fret on most strings to find out what the next string should sound like. The exception is the B which is tuned to the fourth.

It's a bit by design, you have access to a full scale within reach of your hand, no matter where your hand is.

And this really only extends the higher range. So on the high e, instead of 5 unique notes, you'll have 5 + whatever the palmfrets give you.

Now. If it jumped you an entire octave, that could possibly be cool. Basically replace an entire pedal with a bit of hardware on your bridge.

npostavs 5 hours ago

> The exception is the B which is tuned to the fourth.

I was going to say it's a major third, but then realized you meant fourth fret.

> And this really only extends the higher range.

No, the palm frets are only under the bass strings. So what it does is allow you to play first position bass string notes at the same time as higher position treble string notes. It extends the possible chord voicings, not the whole instrument range.

0gs 3 hours ago

come on, no Polyphia fans here? this is the only way to add more notes and finally shred the matrix.

luckydata 7 hours ago

as a long time guitar player, this thing has no future whatsoever, too many compromises that buy you very little musically

rc5150 5 hours ago

agreed. this is another gimmick product on an instrument that reached its apex 70 years ago.

thisisauserid 6 hours ago

Bass and melody at the same time? Wow!

If you throw in playing accompaniment simultaneously you would able to emulate what a second year classical guitar player can do in his sleep!

moomin 6 hours ago

I had a slightly different take, which is that the Chapman Stick already exists.

matula 4 hours ago

Exactly. Thought this would've been mentioned in the article, or least a top comment here.

However, I absolutely appreciate anyone trying out new things. So props to him.